OEG Voices Episode 4: Una Daly with Alexis Clifton and Cynthia Orozco http://voices.oeglobal.org/ Transcription by otter.ai ------------------------------------------------------------------ Varied Voices 0:07 Hello and welcome to OEG Voices... OEG Voice... OEG Voices... OEG Voices, a new podcast bringing to you the voices and ideas of open educators from around the world OEG Voices is produced by Open Education global, a member based nonprofit organization supporting the development and use of open education global and learn more about us at oeglobal.org There's much to take in in a global level. We hope to bring you closer to how open education is working by hearing the stories of practitioners, told in their own voices. Each episode introduces you to a global open educator and we invite you to later engage in conversation with them in our OEG Connect community. Una Daly 0:48 Welcome to OEG voices. I'm Una Daly, the director of the Community College Consortium for OCR, a regional node of Open Education Global. And I'm really thrilled to be here with two open educators who are passionate about open education in particular open pedagogy. And first up I'd like to introduce Alexis Clifton. She's the senior instructional designer at SUNY State University of New York Geneseo. And she's also a member of the Open Education global board of directors. Alexis Clifton 1:19 Hi, everybody. Great to be here. . Una Daly 1:20 Wonderful. And next up, I'd like to introduce Cynthia Orozco and she is the librarian for Equitable Services and an associate professor of library science at East Los Angeles College in California. Cynthia Orozco 1:34 Hi, everyone. Thanks so much for having me. Una Daly 1:36 I want to give you each an opportunity just to talk a little bit about where you're located. And what's up right now. Maybe we'll start with Cynthia to reverse the order. Cynthia Orozco 1:45 Of course, of course, well, I'm in, umm, in Los Angeles County, I work at East Los Angeles College, a part of the Los Angeles Community College District. We're one of nine colleges. We're an incredibly large community college system in the greater Los Angeles area. I am also living out here and right now, you know, we're dealing with the virus. Luckily, I'm not too close. But we do have some other librarians and library workers in the district who are dealing with the fires, which is just kind of an added element to this whole COVID situation. So yeah, you know, it's.... it's the second week of classes and things are somehow have gotten a little bit more tough. Una Daly 2:21 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Cynthia, I hear you. And Alexis, I know you're on the opposite end of the country. Tell us a little bit about what's happening out in your neck of the woods. Alexis Clifton 2:32 Sure. So... my home office these days, is right outside of Rochester, New York, so upstate New York, and I live in a pretty rural area, which is fantastic. For me, it's so well suited. I've lived in urban areas and am happy to be out here with more deer than people neighbors. And the school I work for SUNY, Geneseo is also a pretty rural campus, a liberal arts school and a part of the State University of New York system. So we are in week two of the fall semester, and we've had one active case and then we've had to shut down a couple of fraternities and sororities for parties. But so far, so good fingers crossed that things are proceeding pretty well. Una Daly 3:20 Thank you for that update. So this summer, there was quite an amazing publication called Open Pedagogy Approaches. Alexis was the co-editor of that collection. And Cynthia Orozco was one of the authors. And so I wanted to ask you about that. But first, I thought maybe we check in and hear how did you get started in open education? And what calls to you in open pedagogy? Cynthia Orozco 3:45 Sure. So you know, I think I kind of happened upon OER work just in general, at ALA. I was on a committee for the American Library Association for information technology, and we had a guest speaker, and she talked about OER and I was like, wow, that sounds really amazing. And kind of just had it in the back of my mind. And then it really wasn't until I came to East Los Angeles College, and I was in a position where I'm kind of directly more involved with students. And I thought, wow, you know, this is actually a really good opportunity for us to talk about, OER, our students, you know. I think about can't remember the exact numbers, but we have a lot of students who struggle to pay just the $46 per unit that is the tuition cost in California Community Colleges. And we have textbooks that are you know, 100... 200... 300 dollars. And so that's kind of how I got into into our work. And then with open pedagogy, I think I was taking the Creative Commons beta certificate class with David Wiley and you know, he was talking about his concepts of like the disposable versus the renewable assignment. And I can tell you that as a learner, I've had a really difficult time in education where a lot of times I just wasn't feeling it. So writing a paper at the end the chorus, just as never really kind of motivated me, it hasn't inspired me. But when I thought about what a renewable assignment could look like something that really kind of resonated with students something they could take outside of the classroom, I think that's when I really was like, I want to explore this concept of open pedagogy and what it could look like in my classroom. And I teach a one unit library science class. Una Daly 5:27 Wonderful. And... Alexis, how about you? Alexis Clifton 5:30 All right. So a huge shout out to my buddy Quill West, former CCCOER president and, and just huge OER community advocate, because she was the one that totally introduced me to the whole concept. She started a job at Tacoma Community College about a year after I began at that school, where I was an English Composition faculty at the time. And I was already not using a textbook, I was just I was teaching mostly online. So I just threw a bunch of sources in there and turn everybody loose on them. And students, were helping me figure out what the right ones were to use. And it was great. And then Quill comes along and says, "Hey, you know, what you're doing is OER?" And I said, No, what is that thing. And so a lot of continued conversations and refinement and projects we worked on together. And so she got brought me into the larger open community in the US. And so through her, I got to work on a couple of projects that involved David Wiley and others who started Lumen Learning. And so I ended up working for Lumen :earning for a couple of years and got a great exposure to projects, both OER and open pedagogy across the country and so really engaged and so take that with me, whatever I'm doing from here forward definitely. Una Daly 6:46 Great. Well, it's so how did you decide to publish and be the editor of this new Pressbooks publication "Open Pedagogy Approaches"? Alexis Clifton 6:58 Great question. So pretty soon after I started the position I moved to New York into Geneseo for-- I was the original Executive Director for SUNY OER services. And so I did a lot of our work all across our system, but also a lot of guest speaker positions and just kind of got to know the the local area community. And so there was a librarian who used to work at SUNY Geneseo, but then transitioned to a job at University of Rochester, which is a private university in the city, before I started at Geneseo. And so she heard through the grapevine what I was up to had me come up to the school, she they had already had Robin Derosa on their campus to speak about open pedagogy and got people excited, she got really excited about the concept. And so she and I, you know, kind of kept having conversations like Quill and I did. And so she is a librarian. And so and I'm not primarily a faculty member anymore, but I still consider myself one. That's kind of the mentality I approach everything from. And so we got interested in that, how it actually works between the library faculty partnership when you're talking about course design, including open pedagogy in that project, in that process, rather. And so we had a couple of examples. She's done some really fun things. In the past, I had some great libraries and collaborations that every school I've worked with. And so we thought, well, you know, these are kind of unique projects, but they probably fit into a much larger pattern. And so we wanted to understand what the larger pattern was, between how faculty and librarians could work together, and are working together to really implement open pedagogy in their schools. She really took the lead, she's fantastically organized and fantastically motivated. And so she put together an editorial board of other librarians, and one or two faculty members and a couple of students that were involved at different points at the University of Rochester. And then I was the non Rochester person to come on board on the editorial team. And so I've done a lot of work with Pressbooks, I've done a lot of work with Lumen and various open textbook projects, but I've never actually put together a book of my own before. So that was really exciting to to approach it from that side of things. And so we put out this call for proposals. Kim... (did I say her full name, Kim Davies?) often. So she... she kind of with the editorial board, we kind of came up with four big buckets of what we considered open pedagogy to include. So things like MOOCs, things like transitions to open textbooks and what that looked like in that process of transitioning into it. And then single student course projects and then whole course designs. So we have these kind of four buckets and we asked, we put out the call for proposals we got really involved with Rebus and the Rebus community. So they helped us broadcast. CCCOER and Open Education Global definitely helped us put the word out as well. And so we got a huge response. And every step of the way we put out calls for for peer reviewers for editors for copy editing, we got a lot of response. And it was really just a really engaged community all the way through. So I probably over answered there, but I can circle back to whatever I want. But super happy that Cynthia is here to talk about her chapter because I think it's really a core component of, of what the whole book is doing in one little nutshell. Una Daly 10:30 Yeah, yeah, that's pretty exciting. Why don't you tell us about your information literacy course? And, and how you how you heard about the call for the open pedagogy approaches? Cynthia Orozco 10:43 Yeah. So I, like I said, I teach a one unit Library Science course. And traditionally, it's very-- it's eight weeks-- and it's very library research centric. So how to use databases, using keywords, using subject headings, all that good stuff. And more content. Like, more recently, you know, how to evaluate websites. And those are kind of the main themes of the class. But I found it really important to talk a little bit more about what scholarly communication kind of looks like, just really broadly, when you're at a community college. And... previous to being at ELAC, I was at four year universities. So getting to a campus-- a community college campus, my first community college campus, I was just really shocked at how little institutional access we had to things. And so I went kind of four year two to year, but our students mostly are doing transfer or have plans to transfer. So I'm thinking, okay, they're going from kind of this information scarcity, to being in environments where they have a lot more information. And so I kind of wanted to talk about that phenomenon with them. And also, I kind of feel like in being in this kind of information scarce environment, you really value Open Access more, because you just don't have access to as many things as your, four year counterparts. And so I, within the class, scaffolded information literacy, and scholarly communication concepts, including Open Access. So just like what does it mean to publish an article, what's peer review, how to publishers make their money, etc, etc. And so I kind of sprinkled all this Open Access, OER work within the class. And then at the very end, students have to write an annotated bibliography, that's their course learning outcome. I don't really like annotated bibliographies. They're, they're useful. They're, they're practical, but in terms of like, really capturing what students have learned, not super inspiring to me, but it's kind of just it is what it is, I have to, I have to do that. But the more exciting final project in my mind was building this course zine, so e-zines, just kind of the self published, bit of information around whatever you want to publish. And we published about the class itself, you know, the concepts we learned in the class. And we positioned ourselves as a student group to say,, okay, if if you had the chance to tell other ELAC students how to do research, what would you tell them? And so we made a Google Doc, and we kind of divvied up the work, it was all very democratic, and very loosey goosey, whatever the class really wanted to do. And so they came up with their own title. And they voted on a title. We decided, like, who was going to talk about databases, who was going to talk about keyword searching, who's going to talk about plagiarism, etc, etc. And then students were able to pick which Creative Commons license we use for the zine, they were able to establish their own authorship. And we had, we had kind of talked about author's rights to so when students create things, I want them to know that they do have copyright. And they do have inherent rights whenever they're creating any kind of work and to kind of know what what copyright they do have. And so, you know, students said they want their full names on things. Some students were first name last initial, and some students were like, you know, I'm happy to participate in this, but I don't want my name associated to this at all. And just kind of a fun side note, I think, what I was really inspired by when I was an undergrad student in the early 2000s, I had this terrible Xanga. It was an early online blog, and I just put my life out there. I just didn't know how, like what an online presence look like. I mean, it was early internet, but I would, I was just thinking like, wow, I would be mortified if some of my really early online work was available online. And so I kind of thought some students might be like that, so gave them multiple ways to participate and make their presence known. And like alexus I'm not sure if I over explained or under explained, but happy to elaborate on anything in there. Una Daly 14:42 No, that was amazing. And I you know, I loved to two points. And one was, I love how you use the framework from ACRL, so maybe you can explain that better than I can, but the information framework, and you really use that to with your students and you got feedback from them. Have them on it so that so that they actually understood because I know often these frameworks that are written for faculty and librarians and so forth, they're not in a language that students can really understand. So you, you gave it to them in a way that they could really respond to it and kind of rewrite it in their own words, which I thought was wonderful. And then also, the fact that you explain to them what their rights were, and that it wasn't just, you know, we're gonna all publish something and, you know, here's what we're gonna do, and I are you in or you're out, but you really gave them a lot of choices. Alexis Clifton 15:31 So if I can, I want to echo both of the things that you just said or not, but particularly the using the acrl framework. I have heard it floated around. But I'm, you know, that's not a framework I've ever used personally. And so a lot of the chapters that ended up being included in this book, make reference to and explicitly quote from and talk about how that shaped the project that they did, but Cynthia's chapter did a beautiful job of actually explaining each of the six core components -- the six, right? Yeah. Okay. So the each one of the core components is actually a structural piece of her chapter. So again, that was, what part of why the editorial team of the book, put it in the introductory framework for the book, because it really does an excellent job for our dual readership. You know, the librarians that are reading this book, probably are familiar, deeply familiar with it, but faculty or other staff, or students that are coming to this book, probably not. And so it's just a lovely way to introduce both the framework and how open pedagogy fits inside of it. So, but yeah, please do explain more about it. Because clearly, I'm not the top of my game. But it isn't how it shaped it all. Cynthia Orozco 16:42 It's so funny that both of you kind of remembered the information literacy was a huge part of my chapter, and I just kind of started talking, I didn't engage at all. So was that's kind of horrifying. Um, so so yeah, as a librarian, I think or in any field, you really kind of take things for granted makes assumptions. And I just forgot that. Yeah, my whole chapter is framed around the six frames of the ACRL Information Literacy Framework. So those being-- and I had to pull this up-- I'm sorry, ACRL, I haven't memorized them. Authority is constructed and contextual. Information creation has a process as a process information has value researches, inquiry, scholarship, this conversation, and searching is strategic exploration. So alot of the frames, I won't dig into each one. But there's a lot about centering students as information creators, and getting students to kind of see this like greater information environment that they're operating in. scholarship as conversation is one of my favorite things, because it just shows information is not being static. And it's a conversation that they can absolutely be a part of, even as undergraduates, and also just carving out that space to think about where they might be in the future. So okay, I'm planning to transfer, still figuring out what my major is, but how can I engage with the field? How can I connect with professors? So we talked about social media, and a lot of times students will say, you know, I know Wikipedia is a bad source, or I know, Twitter's a bad source. And it's like, No, no, no, that's not necessarily true. Let's think about how this information was created. Who's creating it? Is this good? Or not? Like, what are our values? And how do we perceive this information? It's not just good and bad. So students really get to test their kind of information literacy skills and their own kind of world frameworks. And also kind of build. like, what does it mean to have good information? Una Daly 18:33 I wonder if... do you have a specific student in mind, maybe who went through the class who kind of had some deep insights, or, you know, maybe, maybe you could share something like that. Cynthia Orozco 18:46 I have two students that come to mind. And they're on the opposite spectrum. One was a student who talked all the time in class, had lots of opinions, and another student who literally never spoke to me. But I feel like both of them had good experiences. So my first student, you know, he turned in work late, he came to class late, at some point, I think, and halfway through, he said, "You know what, I like learning, but I don't like school." And that, really, and again, like that really resonated with me a lot of times, it's like, what is our Why? And I think a lot of times when students are doing work, that's very-- what's a good word to say-- it's like... I keep using this word, but uninspired, like, okay, we're just going through the motions. I don't really know why I'm doing this, but we're doing it. And so I think for me, the biggest thing talking to the student was having students know what their Why is, why are we learning this? Where does this fit into the larger context of my life, not just professor telling students to do this? Because it's good for them, but what am I getting out of this? So I think about him a lot. You know, "I like I like learning but I don't like school." So it's like how can we facilitate learning in exciting ways. And then the second student, and this gets to a point that I kind of forgot to mention, he's very quiet. He sat in the back, literally never spoke. And he also was one of the students that didn't claim authorship. He didn't want to be involved or have his name listed on our final scene. But we had this metacognitive element of the Canvas course that aligned with our in person course. So, every week, students had to articulate you know, what they were learning how they were learning what they wanted to do after the class, and just kind of just keep their learning in check. And in those metacognitive exercises, he always just had really fully fleshed out ideas, and you can tell the wheels were turning, he was learning and he was having a good time, even if you didn't show it in person. So I think that shows that sometimes our in person dispositions also don't necessarily align with like, what's actually happening. So he taught both of those students taught me a lot, I think about them all the time, Alexis Clifton 20:50 To further brag on Cynthia's chapter, if you're interested at all in how she put this assignment together, she shared all that with us openly. Which was again, a big part of Kim's and my motivation for putting this book together, especially publishing it in an open platform the way that we did. Tim and some of the other editors had experienced publishing, more traditional, I believe, through ACRL, I could be wrong, more traditional edited books. And so we consciously chose not to do it that way, to do Pressbooks, to use the library instance of Pressbooks at Geneseo, so that we could make the chapters as long as they needed to be and include all of the materials that people wanted to share with us. So in Cynthia's chapter, we've got the full assignment. And everything in the book is CC BY if this is exciting to you, and she does a great job of coaching you through how this could work in any kind of class, not necessarily an information literacy specific class. So thank you for that gifts and the appreciate that. Cynthia Orozco 21:52 Yeah, I think it's interesting coming from a four year university, where I used to have like a research component to my work. Now I really don't have to. At a community college, if you're a faculty you don't publish. But I think there's a lot of really interesting work happening. So you know, I think, Alexis, you for letting me even be a part of this publication. I actually, you know, I always have that imposter syndrome. When I put in a proposal, I'm like, "I think that's cool." But I hope they think it's cool, too. So it was it was really kind of just great to be able to share this with everybody. I think sometimes, there's this work that's happening that no one really knows about. And I'm always happy to connect with people, you know, you can send me an email, you can send me a tweet, and I would be happy to discuss with anybody further. Una Daly 22:34 Cynthia, you mentioned to me a couple weeks ago, when we were setting up this time, you said, well, I'm reviewing it, to teach it a little bit differently this Fall. Did you want to share a little bit about how you might be doing it differently this Fall? Cynthia Orozco 22:46 Yeah, that's a really, that's a really good thing that I should probably be thinking more about. But you know, living in COVID times, doing this class completely online, actually, you know, for the most part, I teach this class online. So that's, it's interesting, like, this whole distance education thing in COVID, is not equal to what distance education normally is. It's, like I said, when I first we first started, you know, so many of our students are dealing with just COVID stuff, you know, racial unrest, the fires in California, I know, like, I've picked up a lot of duties that I don't normally have. So everyone's just kind of living in these these weird times these really challenging times. So I'm kind of wondering if it should even be like, around a topical area, like how to you know how to survive COVID How to Survive Fall semester, around information, because it's still an information literacy class. Yeah, yeah. So I'm just.. I'm just going to be reframing around our content, like it would be silly to just ignore the times we're living in. So it's like, how could we kind of figure out an input because the zines are meant to be consumed by students after the class? You know, it's not again, it's a... it's a renewable assignment. So what might be useful for the campus? And honestly, maybe that's not a question that I'm going to answer. But something that we figure out as a class. It's a little bit harder in an asynchronous format, but not impossible. So I might have to just get back to you. Una Daly 24:12 That's perfect. So Alexis, is there any thought about a second version of the of the collection? Alexis Clifton 24:20 So that's a great question. I definitely had it in the back of my head the whole time. We were putting the book together. So we started on this book about a year and a half ago and actually like, okay, this is going to be a book. And so most of the way through was in the before times before COVID. And during that period, I really was envisioning turning this into an open journal. And since then, my position has changed I'm not dealing with or not, not working as close with an open pedagogy project. So it would be a little bit harder to justify running it myself, but I would fully support handing it over to someone that was interested. So hit me up. Let's talk further if you're interested. But I think we got a lot of submissions that were great but weren't quite in the scope of this book, but could be further fleshed out or things that people proposed that they were going to do, but hadn't actually experienced yet. So I'd love to know how those came about. So there's definitely an ongoing conversation there that I hope we continue. And Kim and I will be presenting about this that a couple of different places, including the Open Education Global Conference in November, and we're going to include some of the authors, but also some of the peer reviewers and copy editors. One of my favorite parts of this book is the student involvement all the way through, and this book itself actually became an open pedagogy project, because there was a copyright editing course at the University of Rochester that helped us copy edit several of the chapters. So there's students, you know, all of the layers of open just kind of unfolded beautifully with this project. But there, there's definitely ongoing conversation, but no concrete plans. Una Daly 25:59 Thank you. And I'm really, I'm really glad to hear you, you'll be presenting on this on the upcoming OE Global and other conferences. So, you know, both of you have been sharing about COVID-19, and how it's been affecting your local situation, do you have thoughts about how open education is helping during this time, maybe either you personally, or your students, or perhaps faculty who you work with. Has, you know, open education, not only content, the open textbooks, and so forth, and open courses, but also open practices to to make this situation better, as we, as we transition to just an education is going to be different after this? Cynthia Orozco 26:46 I have lots of opinions on this. So it's interesting. So at my campus, we don't have a big OER program, we don't actually have really, we don't really have much that is very official, it's very unofficial, I'm more like de facto, we are librarian. So I get invited to do things. That's fine. But a lot of times when we're talking about OER, these days, it's because we're in COVID. And it's because we don't have in person, you know, library reserves, we have to use OER. I'm like, okay, that's not that's not true. So it's a really great opportunity to talk about the affordances of OER, and how this can really be a sustainable future for us. And I'm really hoping that administration takes note of just the climate that we're in, that we can't ignore, that textbooks are so prohibitively expensive, that sometimes they can't, that there maybe isn't even an e-book alternative right now. So that's, that's something-- what else was I gonna say-- you know, when you have so many thoughts, and you can't think of like, two, so there's that. And then also, because I've been teaching students open access, and OER for a while, I think that I'm just more motivated to teach students about OER and open access and getting them involved in the conversation, open pedagogy or open informed pedagogy, what I call it, is that students just know that this exists, I think, when we talk about OER, or when we use OER, and it's just like, here's a free textbook students are like, " Sweet, free textbook." But when students kind of understand the greater OER, Open Education movement, they're really kind of in a position to advocate for themselves, whether it's here right now in a specific class and a program on the campus, their transfer universities. And so it's really cool that I have some students who have been around for a while and they know that we are a thing because they've been in my class. And so one of them's in Associated Students right now. I reached out to him, and I said, you know, what, you remember we are I would like to talk about it with the Associated Students. I want to make som e noise. I just want to, you know, let's do a social media campaign. Let's make administration listen, because you deserve this. And I don't have to explain it to him, because he did the whole unit. And he was in my class for eight weeks. Una Daly 28:55 Great. And do you also see some connection with social justice and anti-racism issues? Cynthia Orozco 29:03 Oh, absolutely. And you know, we're at, we are majority minority institution. And we have a lot of low income students. I think, actually, the majority of our students are on fee waivers. We do have book vouchers and things like that. But I think if we were really real with ourselves, we're always talking about student centered, the student center that we're talking about equity, we're talking about guided pathways. All we are is literally one of the solutions to all of these these problems. It's like getting students to be successful in class. As a librarian, I can't tell you how many times a student is like, "I can't afford the book." So I'm going to get the free version for ... 14 days and do homework for two weeks. And then I'm just going to wing it and hopefully I'll do okay. Can you imagine what students how students could perform if they had access to the book all the time, all students? So yeah, I absolutely think it's a social justice issue and at a campus like mine, I think it's especially important. And I'm just hoping that COVID might be a catalyst for further OER considerations. Alexis Clifton 30:09 I've definitely seen a different take on that. I've definitely worked, my own teaching experience was at similar institutions to yours, Cynthia, but I'm at Geneseo. It's a much different atmosphere on both on the faculty and student side. And there has been, I think this level of assumption or comfortable assumption about our students are, you know, they have these resources, they have this knowledge and know how they can navigate this world. And then, so this COVID area has kind of ripped off some of that veneer a little bit. And so I think everybody across the campus is forced to acknowledge some, some painful truths that they had been kind of maybe lost over, I don't think anybody was actively ignoring or, you know, I think everybody's heart was in the right place. But it was easy to overlook or not see some of the issues that are more evident now that students are having bandwidth issues, they're having, you know, difficulty accessing materials, our faculty are having trouble, you know, we don't have the best internet connection in the rural area. So we've got several that have to drive places to give class or whatever the case may be. When you start looking at it from that perspective, everybody's much more open to how do we make this easier and accessible and keep us all engaged. I also want to be very cognizant that everybody's doing a whole lot that they never anticipated that they were would be doing right now. So I don't want to add anyone's burden. But I think open answer some questions or answer some challenges in much more seamless ways. So it's easy to have a conversation where open is the answer, even if I'm not going into it saying this is going to be an open conversation or a conversation about where we are open pedagogy. So it's kind of fun, how that kind of organically evolves. Una Daly 31:55 Yeah, and thank you both for sharing that. The only thing I would add, I guess is, I think, with the open pedagogy component, it also can help elevate voices, I think that aren't heard. I hope that that that co-creation between teachers and their students, I think, can be really powerful for looking beyond just affordability. Alexis Clifton 32:21 Absolutely. And there's some good chapters in the book in addition to Cynthia's that address that more directly. There's an-- let me go look at the table of contents, because I won't remember off the top of my head-- but there is a chapter specifically that talks about a Black Lives Matter movement at another SUNY institution, SUNY Potsdam, there's a really nice one from Texas, (remind of the school?) Texas, Rio Grande Valley-- University of Texas at Rio Grande Valley, that's talking about expanding the state standardized test to include more people of Hispanic background and Latin-X background in the question bank. So they're having education students help create those questions and do the archival research to do that. So there's some fun models. And ag ain, it's meaningful work, it gets everybody engaged, and it also expands who's in our academia. Una Daly 33:14 Wonderful. Any closing comments? Yeah, thank you both. I know I've started the book. I mean, I've read Cynthia's obviously, and I did see the Black Lives Matter-- but I haven't had a chance to read it yet. But it's a big collection. Alexis Clifton 33:30 Yeah there are 24 content chapters. Yeah, there's a lot going on in there. And the discipline range is wide, which is exciting to me. And the scope of types of institutions is really wide as well. There aren't as many community colleges represented as I would have liked. But that would be again, a follow up project would be really nice there. Cynthia Orozco 33:50 Yeah. So I have opinions on that. I think that part of it is because one we're not required to publish. So a lot of people just take that. And that's fine, right? Like, I'm not getting paid for this, I'm not going to do it. Then I... but I do think there are people who want to share this information, but because it's not part of our work, or maybe people haven't published before. It's scary. So I wonder if there could even be, and I'd be happy to maybe do something. It's so funny, cuz I'm like, stop accepting things, do less work, but I keep doing it. And I would be happy to say like, you know, if you want to talk about publishing, if you just have a good idea, and you want to get your idea out there, I'd be happy to help you with the proposal help you with writing the actual paper, because we don't really have that that know how or infrastructure to do it. Alexis Clifton 34:34 Yeah. When I was a community college faculty, I presented a lot, but I never wrote anything up. And yeah, that kind of mentorship had been very valuable to me. So thank you for offering. Well... Cynthia Orozco 34:43 Of course. Yeah, it's like I even me like when I when I read the proposal. I'm like, "Do I have time for this?" but I'm in a Ph. D. program and I wrote a similar paper. So I was like, okay, I could just make it more useful and less theory and it'll be great. Alexis Clifton 35:00 I didn't know that. That's cool. Cynthia Orozco 35:02 Oh, I made it a secret for two years because I wasn't sure I could do it. I'm still not sure I can do it. Yes. That's what my students say it I'm like okay, I'm glad everyone else has confidence in me. Una Daly 35:18 Thank you for listening to this episode of OEG Voices from Open Education Global. Our featured open licensed music today is "Vast", by Open Ocean, Creative Commons licensed music found on SoundCloud. You can find this episode at our site voices.global.org. and engage in follow up conversations at OEG Connect. connect.global.org. Transcribed by https://otter.ai