Multiple Voices: Hello and welcome to OEG Voices. OEG Voices. OEG Voices. OEG Voices- ... a podcast bringing to you the voices and ideas of open educators from around the world. OEG Voices is produced by Open Education Global- ... a member-based non-profit organization- ... supporting the development and use of open education globally. Learn more about us at oeglobal.org. Oh, there's much to take in at a global level. We hope to bring you closer to how open education is working- ... hearing the stories of practitioners- ... told in their own voices. Each episode introduces you to a global open educator- ... and we invite you to later engage in a conversation with them- ... in our OEG Connect community. See you there. Alan Levine: Welcome to the OEG Voices Podcast and I'm your host from Open Education Global, Alan Levine. And I've been looking forward to this conversation for quite some time and I hope that OE Global is in a leadership transition process. So we're real excited to have a conversation today with our outgoing executive director, Paul Stacey, who has been here five years and he's been working very closely with our new executive director who you want to welcome, Andreia Inamorato. And so this is Andreia's first couple of weeks on board and I'm sure we can only imagine what it's like that it's been meetings and things for her to learn and understand where things are in the Google Drive. And it's very fortunate that this process really started very early in this year to create this viable transition process. And I had approached Andreia pretty early, probably her first week, to see if we could do this as a chance to get people to know her in the community. And so we'll talk about what the leadership process is like and get to know Andreia a bit better and hear from Paul and his looking back at his years here. But really it's just a chance to get to know Andreia and also for people to feel like they can come to her and let her know what their interests and desires and dreams and just what they want to see OE Global become next year. So with that, I had hoped that I would just sit back and let them talk, but I hope I did broker this and so I'm just going to ask, I always ask, I'm going to start, we know all about you Paul, we'll get back to you. Andreia, tell us where in the world are you right now and where are you sitting right now? Andreia Inamorato: Okay. Okay, I'll get there. So first of all, hello Alan, hello Paul. It's a pleasure to be having this conversation with you. And hello to everyone who's listening to us. I am sitting right now in Seville, it's a city in the south of Spain, not too far away from the border with Portugal. So I'm in Europe right now. But you may as well know that I have dual nationality. I am Spanish-Brazilian and therefore I'm also quite often going to Brazil. I have family there, so many connections in Brazil and I like to have the possibility to interact with both parts of the world and hopefully expand even more now. Alan Levine: Yes, that's very exciting. And Seville, is that a big metropolitan city? Are you in a quiet part? What's the area around you? Andreia Inamorato: Okay, okay. Well, I actually live in the outskirts of the main city, it's called the Aljarafe, Seville. It's Tomares where I live. It's a very nice city. It's a city. It's a small city, let's say within Seville greater area. But Seville is a very lively city indeed. When you think of Spain, I don't know what comes to your mind, but to many people it is flamenco dancing, and all those beautiful dresses that women wear, those flowers in their hair and nice oranges and olive oil. So all the weather, the sun is always shiny here. Sometimes it's 45, 46 degrees in the summer. It's a lovely place to be. It's very beautiful and very lively and I think a lot of the Spanish culture lies in here and it's very nice to be able to be part of it. Alan Levine: That's beautiful. I have to admit, I think of some of the old westerns that were shot on Spanish landscape that passed for the America West, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. And you have family, you have... You have a young son, right? Andreia Inamorato: Yes, exactly. Yes. I have a son who is now two years and seven months old. His name is Thiago Inamorato. And he's lovely. Yes, thank you. He's lovely. And my parents have moved to Spain as well. We are all originally from São Paulo, which is a very big city. We are over 15 million people in São Paulo, the capital city in Brazil because then you have São Paulo state, which is much bigger. But my parents have decided to make this transition as well because of the grandson being bored, so since they are retired, they thought they would take advantage of it to have fun. And it's been great to have the family reunited because I've been abroad for so many years, for over 20 years now. So it's great to be able to enjoy family time together, yes. Alan Levine: Oh that's good. And a young boy should have his grandparents around so they can spoil him, right? Andreia Inamorato: Oh, all the time. Tell me about it. Alan Levine: So growing up in São Paulo, what was young Andreia like? Were you an eager student? Did you love going to school? What was school like that you remembered? Andreia Inamorato: Oh, what an interesting question, Alan. Yes, I've always been, I must say, a very good student. I had good marks, but I was also very curious and I come from, let's say a part of São Paulo that is the north area of the city. So São Paulo is so big, it's even difficult to talk about areas, the north area, the south area. I come from the North, Santana, Jaçanã, the ones who live there, they will know. There is that samba by the way, there is very well known by many people in which they sing (singing). Sorry, I know I have a terrible voice, my son- Alan Levine: Oh no. Andreia Inamorato: It's a song that everybody knows and it's part of my origin, let's say. I've lived a long time of my life in Jaçanã, and it's samba that is kind of an icon in Brazilian culture. It is called "trem das onze the 11 o'clock train. It departs at 11 o'clock, let's say. This is just a parenthesis. So yes, I've always studied in public schools then. So I have to share that I had very good education, but always in public schools. And for me, it is something fantastic to have been able to come from a hardworking family, let's say working class family, let's put it this way. And to be able to travel the world and to connect with the people that I have connected, to travel to Europe when I was 21 years old. I was the first one of my family to decided to go abroad and say, there's an only child, woman. No, imagine. No, the only child, the girl, little girl at 21 say bye-bye, I'm going to the other side of the world when we did not have Zoom, our internet was not that great over there. My conversations with my parents was over the phone. So it was quite a challenge for everyone, not only for me, but for my family. But I must say that part of it was because I was very much interested in getting to know the world and learning more. And I think that for me, education was a fantastic way of making my way through the unknown. So by getting more and more education, being able to move on from college, I started to be a primary teacher, then I learned English. I used to go to English school on Saturdays, every Saturday for many, many years. Then I became an English teacher at a private school. Then I did my first degree and then my master's degree. And then I thought, why not? I'm going to adventure myself abroad. So, exactly. So I think that it was all very, very new, at least in my family to do what I did. And I'm very proud of that coming from where I come from, which I'm very proud about. Alan Levine: And I love hearing and knowing that you started your career as a teacher. That's really key. And also I'm looking forward to learning some more Portuguese expressions because I've been relying on Google Translate and I know that's not very reliable. And so I want us that be something that we do together. And also I want to say hi to Paul and you're now... I've known you working in Vancouver, but you're getting ready to have this bi-coastal life now. How's that been? Paul Stacey: Yeah. That's true, Alan. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me here and it's great to hear Andreia's story. Yeah, I mean I've lived in Vancouver now really since about 1990, I guess, Alan and although just the last five years have been more in the downtown core of the city. But I have a new partner in my life and they're back from Ontario where I grew up and so we're going back and forth between Vancouver and the little town of Cobourg in Ontario, which is where both my partner and I were born and grew up. So yeah, we have our foot in two worlds and are bridging the two. But it's kind of fun because Vancouver's like a big cosmopolitan city, very to very dynamic and alive and Cobourg's a little tiny, quaint rural town that's quiet and beautiful on the lake with a beach. So in both places I have a beach, so I'm happy. Alan Levine: That's wonderful. And it's always an unusual experience to go back to the place you grew up in because you remember it, but you've done so much since then and so that's a nice circle to come back to. Paul Stacey: It is, yeah. I've been enjoying and we've been having fun with it, actually. I mean it's true, you walk along the streets and you remember that you were walking these streets when you were a young child and/or I walked past my partner's house in Coburg and we were boyfriend and girlfriend in high school, and so it's like, "Oh, I remember going on our dates together and picking her up at this house." And so there's these memories and there's also a sense of how much has time affected the place. It looks very much similar to the way it looked when I was a kid, although there's been some changes and also you appreciate, I really appreciated growing up there. It was a beautiful place to grow up as a child. And I came from a working class family like Andreia did and had to go through a similar adventure in terms of my education trajectory, rather. And so sometimes when I'm there I reflect on what a path, what a journey I took starting in this little town and ending up where I've ended up so far. And it is fun to go back, a little bit of flashback, but also a kind of appreciation for the... a new appreciation for where I grew up. Alan Levine: Andreia, you set off this venture to explore the world at 21, and you did both your advanced degrees at the open university and then you spent 20 years working in Europe. We're really eager, I know, well, I am just sort have a better understanding of the way different regions of the world, they don't always think about open education or the work we do in exactly the same ways. The core principles are there and I know recently that the conversation I had with Jonathan Ports who moved from the US to Italy and he just casually described that really it's almost refreshing to have some conversation with the Italian open educators because they just see things maybe just slightly in a different manner. And so is that even possible to characterize what the European perspective is and what that brings to your work as OE Global Executive Director? Andreia Inamorato: Yeah, thank you, Alan. Yes, I think you're absolutely right. Whenever I ask people what's open education for you, I even ask what's open education for you because I know it's a very personal perspective that people tend to bring to it. It's very difficult indeed to say what it is because it can be so many things at the same time. And perhaps that's one of the challenges that we have in the movement. It's not just tangible as saying it is dot, dot and a quick explanation full stop. I think that open education is a compound of elements that we can choose what makes most sense to us at a particular time in a particular context. And it can range from a variety of things starting from perhaps a philosophy of openness as a value. I want to be an open educator. I want to live in a more open and democratic society, more inclusive. And that means inclusiveness in all senses, lowering barriers to education, financial barriers for people who have some sort of physical challenges, accessibility. So it can be all that discourse around inclusion, but it could also mean other things like more access to knowledge overall in general for anyone, anyone who wants to upscale or re-skill, there are so many opportunities for everyone to engage of open education. There is not only one type of profile of person that can benefit from it. So I actually think that we don't need to have a single description of open education. I think that rather we should really try and engage with the concept and try and understand how broad it is and then find ourselves within that. And perhaps that has been one of the things that we have been trying to do in Europe when I was part of this big project that I worked on the OpenEdu framework, which is European Framework for Open Education. I came back to Europe to work in Spain for the European Commission for a research institute called Joint Research Center. JRC is the research arm of the European Commission, which is the executive body of the European Union. So it's an in-house research institute. And we had this big political agenda of open education then. And that was brought on board exactly to lead on this part of the agenda to help co-develop this framework for Europe but not only for Europe because in the end it's for all and everyone would take part in it. And one of the things that we made a point in doing in this framework was to develop 10 dimensions for open education to include OER content in there, but not only that, but also access, pedagogy, research, so include open science, quality leadership, and all those types of aspects that are so important for open education. So I think that in Europe there are so many different perceptions of open education, but it certainly goes beyond OER and open science, and it goes beyond teaching and learning to also take on board some leadership aspects, also open pedagogy, et cetera. But then I can see that this is not only in Europe, no. I can say that there is a whole movement now towards opening up education even more, even to social aspects that you can see how open education can contribute for everyone to understand more the world we live in right now. And in Brazil, for example, there is a big relationship and even great relationship nowadays between distance education and open education. People are really engaging with these concepts and trying and unpack them. So I think it's all about engaging with the concept and to me that's what we need to keep on doing, not only raising awareness, but also helping people to engage even more with open education in general. Alan Levine: That's exciting then. And I mean you've had these major projects in policy and research and implementing change, and then I'm even seeing you've done work in blockchain, so I'm hoping... And so this really speaks to this wide range of interest and skills you bring. But still, I'm curious for both of you to talk about, I mean, it's a little bit daunting to say we're doing this at a global level. I mean the globe is big, and how do we still keep that perspective in broad view and still impact or help affect people on the ground? Is that a struggle to figure out how to operate globally? Andreia Inamorato: Well, I wouldn't say, well, is it a struggle, it's a challenge for sure. It's challenging because I think that at least for OE global, it's part of what we must be doing is really trying and understand what goes on in different parts of the world. But then we need the community because without the community around it, we cannot do it. We cannot do it alone. So it's all about trying and engaging with the community, the community that understands open education, the ones that are eager to learn about it, but also our members and have this conversation that goes both ways. So our understanding, their understanding that will help shape our understanding again. So it's like the concept of discourse that we have, discourse not only as in oral language, but discourse at a more ideological level, the discourses we live by, let's say, how we construct these different fields by interacting and reshaping the way we understand them. So I believe that OE Global does a very good job in engaging with the community. And I think this is one of the ways for us to keep on understanding these different perceptions of open education, at the same time try and see how we can engage further so we definitely need everyone to work on this with us. Alan Levine: All right, and Paul, you've been doing this for five years. How have you come about to addressing this global perspective? Paul Stacey: Well, I think I agree a lot with what Andreia is suggesting, and that is that the notion of what is open education is really a personal thing, and it really is very diverse all around the world, which I actually think is kind of fascinating. I don't think of it as a negative thing. I think it's actually a wonderful thing. It makes it hard to define the tent and who's part of it and who isn't. But on the other hand, it's like when you go traveling, one of the really wonderful things about traveling is experiencing different cultures and different ways of life around the world. And so for me, the global part of open education is a bit like that. It's a bit like travel. You're experiencing how a particular culture embraces the underlying principles and then enacts them, puts them into practice. I think that from an OE Global point of view, organizationally, I've always thought that in some ways we have the mandate to bring together the practitioners and the understandings of open education globally under one central organization, if you will that can help advocate and advance it no matter what part of the world you're in. And in some ways, Open Education Global looks for what is common, what's similar about open education in all parts of the world. And let's enable and help that flourish by bringing people together to exchange best practice and knowledge about it. But then on the other hand, we also have to acknowledge and support and foster the uniqueness of open education in particular parts of the world. And balancing both, enabling the kind of universal things about open education common at a global level while still acknowledging and embracing and supporting the unique diverse ways in which open education's put into practice is a very interesting element of working at OE Global and I've certainly tried to make both happen. I don't think you necessarily have to choose one over the other. I think there's room for both. And in a way it enriches the work we do. Alan Levine: So I'm going to switch gears, I'll probably switch gears all over the place now, but Paul, I'll start, because you've been doing this job, executive director, we have bullet points of things you do and responsibilities. What's a typical day like? I know there's probably not a typical day, but what is it like to be... Because we think of a director and it's like it's this leadership position, but it's also these people we see and they're working from their homes and so what's a day like for you? Paul Stacey: Well, my day started at 6:30 AM with a meeting this morning with Andreia. Alan Levine: Time zones! Andreia Inamorato: My mistake today. Paul Stacey: Early morning starts, that's what it's all about. Alan Levine: It's all about time zones. Paul Stacey: I mean, that is an element of the job, of course, when you're working globally, is you do have to acknowledge the differences of time. And so for me, at least when I'm in Vancouver, super early morning starts are a typical part of the day. And that ends up affecting your daily rhythm, of course. I would say it's a wonderful mix of things, Alan. Even today, the 6:30 meeting was really about OE Global working to create a new research proposal for the National Science Foundation in the US. And the research proposal is investigating or looking at how to enable open education resources for STEM, for science, technology, engineering and math to be done in a way that is appropriately tagged, that acknowledges and deals with racial discrimination and things like that. So there's the underlying work that is really imperative and that is always evolving. And so one of the roles that I definitely have felt I've had with this executive director capacity is how do I build momentum? It's an agenda of action, not just thinking about things and talking about things, but converting it into action and actually implementing initiatives or seeking to implement initiatives in collaboration with others that really potentially have a regional and a global impact. So there, there's that aspect of trying to create momentum and trying to put in place initiatives that will build that momentum that actually can take a lot of work, just getting that going. And then there's the meeting I had after that was with staff talking about all the projects that OE Global does on an annual basis and all the team coordination that is required to make those projects go well. And I've been super proud of the team we have at OE Global. I think you guys are all really high performers and I love being part of that teamwork, but it takes effort to build that team to create a culture of care within that team and to enable all of you to have the leadership and confidence to implement your project successfully. And then I'll say the next meeting after that was with the Network of Open Orgs, which is sister organizations around the world who are also interested in open education and how do we join forces together to work collaboratively to do more than what we can do as individual organizations and have a bigger impact. So there's this continuous fluctuation on a daily basis throughout the day from really big picture strategy stuff down to very small, incremental, fine operational work, back to relationship building. And it's, on the one hand, it can be a bit daunting to have to fluctuate so much, but on the other hand, it keeps it interesting and inspiring and exciting and I've really loved it. The peak of my career so far has been being executive director for Open Education Global. Alan Levine: And I would've guessed that a lot of meetings and a lot of communications and probably a schedule that looks like it has only little bits of open areas. Knowing you, I think I know the answer, but to share to the audience, what do you do to... Where do you find your moments to pull back, and what do you like to do to step away and do your think time? Is there such a thing and what works for you? Paul Stacey: Well, I have different kinds of think time, but I'd say for sure, every day I go for a long walk. And I will say that the long walks have been not only just good physically getting some exercise, I try to get 15,000 steps a day. That's what I try to go for. But it's also sometimes the time when I actually work through something in my mind and some of my really best ideas and solutions sometimes come from that walk where you're out in the world experiencing the rain or the snow or the sun or whatever it is here in Vancouver at that moment, often somehow refreshes your mind and helps you think differently. But that's thinking about work. I will say that I have creative practice that I like to engage in, which actually turns off my work mind and engages my mind in a more creative outlet. So I'm working on a painting right now, for example, and I have frequently worked on a painting regularly over the last several years. And I find when I'm working on that painting, it's like my working mind is shut down and it's silent and it's really good to shut down your work mind sometimes and let it go silent because then the other parts of your mind start to take over and find their place. And I feel it's not like I get ideas about work when I'm painting or writing poetry, I've got some poems coming out in a pandemic issue of the National Poetry Magazine here in Canada. But those two activities like poetry and painting are kind of more creative ways of refreshing myself and keeping my mind open and alive and aware of what might be possible because I definitely find that with poetry and painting, I'm definitely pushing at what I thought was possible for me to do. And if you break through then you have, "Oh wow, I didn't realize I could do this, but I can," then that's kind of a moment of growth for yourself, which I find spills over then into my work life. Alan Levine: There it is, the balance. And so I'm going to have give Andreia a chance, but I mean, you're transferring from a different organization and I can only guess at what the learning curve is like because we're all used to how we operate. And so how've the days been for you work-wise? Andreia Inamorato: I'm doing good and well, a fantastic experience. I mean, I've been really engaging with all this that Paul was talking about, all sorts of meetings, particularly getting to know the staff, all the team, and indeed I've inherited a fantastic team. Thank you, Paul. Thanks to you, Alan, and to all that are so dedicated to OE Global within our team. So to me, it's been essential to get to know the whole team at a more personal level and professionally understanding where they're coming from, their goals, what they do on a daily basis, but also understanding the organization as a whole. We are now in the process of rethinking the bylaws, engaging with the board, and understanding how the board works. So that's how fascinating and a new world for me because as I say, I come from an inter-government organization that is huge, the European Commission itself, but I've always worked under a lot of pressure as well. So don't think that it's much different for me. I come from a very highly paced type of work environment. Alan Levine: That is no question. We saw that right away. So we can tell. Andreia Inamorato: Yes, you can tell. So, I think I carry a little bit with me. Anyway, but yeah, so it has always been like this just at an extent but it's true that now it's a bit different because of all the time zones involved as Paul has just said, and the different needs and the different ways that we engage. But I think it's been fantastic and we've been working online really well. I know that OE Global has a long trajectory of being a virtual organization now, working online, not only because of the pandemics so there is a lot of knowledge built into the organization because of this trajectory. And for me now, it's more about getting to learn more about the people and really thinking more strategically. I think of my role is more strategic than anything else. It's really try and see the wonderful things that OE Global is already doing and how we can do even more by looking at the new strategic plan that has been developed and how we can tap into that a bit more and keep on doing what you're doing well and reframing some other things and engaging more with members. So yes, there's a lot about it that has to do with thinking, thinking time and taking the time to think strategically and engage with people. And for me, I must say that my distraction is really my son, and it's fantastic because that's the other side of Andreia educator, but I'm now an educator as a mother, so a mother, a daughter, and a professional. And bringing these three things together is challenging, but fascinating at the same time because just by seeing how my son develops, improves his language skills, his bilingual language skills and how he engages with technology, I find it fascinating. And I keep on thinking back, looking back at my work and see and trying to find those relationships between this new generation and to everything that we are trying build for them. So yes, it's all together, everything in a beautiful mix. Alan Levine: I will tell him how fortunate he has to have a mom who does all this and gives him that attention. And it's also such a helpful reminder to think about. I mean, you're in the middle of someone's pure learning. The most intense time of learning that we ever do is at that age, and that makes a lot of sense. The five years that you've been executive director, it'd be a long way to list things that have happened and changed. And I know it just seems like we can talk about, there's always this ongoing question or trying to assess where are we emerging from the pandemic experience and how's that shaping going forward? But now we're being hit on some sides by a lot of things about artificial intelligence and there's questions about always that we're paying attention to the stability, sustainability of the environment and economies. And in some ways it feels like a world that has a lot of uncertainty going on. So where do we steer open education through all this? That's a impossible question, I know but... I wasn't even sure if I had a question. I just think about sometimes I think we just underestimate what the world did in the last three years, and the fact that we are here and working and having this conversation is in some ways quite positive with so much loss that has gone on too. But none of us saw that coming obviously, and here we are. Paul Stacey: I mean, I'll jump in first and just say yeah, I think I mean in some ways I feel like the pandemic isn't quite over, and so I feel like we're still learning. I'm not sure, that's a huge question, but there's several things related to it. One is I would say coming out of the pandemic, for me, a big takeaway away was that open science really made a difference during the pandemic. So maybe not OER in our traditional concept of Open Education Resources, but open science really led to the ability to rapidly produce a vaccine and to share research and data that allowed for dealing with a global issue that really was not regionally bound. And so in some ways, I think that open proved itself with that particular... in that particular area during the pandemic and established more broadly an understanding of what the benefits of open are. So if you are trying to accelerate scientific progress and development associated with science, clearly open science is the way to go because any other form of science unnecessarily impedes it. So for me, the pandemic from an open science point of view, pointed the way to frictionless progress is what open enables. Once you start curbing open, then you start putting brakes on that development and that progress. I think that, that will see a spill off, a spillover effect from that and a greater recognition of the importance of open not only for open science, open access, open data, but also on the teaching and learning side with open education resources and open pedagogy in Z degrees and all the other things that are emerging in the open space. I hope to see a follow-up to that realization where we see greater investment by governments and a shift in our education systems towards a favoring and open approach over the closed approach. I think that's one of the things that we need to see is a recognition that open is not an add-on, but is a core, what I think of as an operating system. It's not something that you add onto the side. It ought to be at the core of what you're trying to accomplish, but that takes different strategy and different investment, and those are big system changes and sometimes those are the hardest to make. But I am seeing some inklings of that. I'll say, here's a few more, very short. I'll make this short, but here's a few more things that I think are on the radar screen and in new ways compared to say even when I started five years ago, open pedagogy for sure, I think is really a huge thing of major importance. And I'm looking forward and excited by the way that's being embraced by faculty and students, especially students, and the involvement of them in producing, let's call them, digital public goods that generate some benefit to society. I think that's a game changer for education and could have huge repercussions or benefits, let me put it that way. I do think that the whole areas of what are the benefits of open, we used to previously talk about lowering the costs of textbooks for students and students savings, especially in North America. That was a huge thing. But now we're complimenting that with a greater emphasis on diversity, equity, and inclusion and the importance of openness that it can play a role in that. I think that's a really healthy thing. And I think we'll see more and more of that, especially as we continue to see work being built out around Open For Antiracism kinds of initiatives, a big project of which we're involved with. And then I do think where there's some uncertainty in my mind is around AI, in particular, artificial intelligence. And that's been brought up once already in this podcast. I just wonder what the role of open is there. And clearly some of the early examples of AI have been treading on what might be thought of as the principles of open without really any repercussions. So that's one that I'm actually personally investing in right now as I try to bring up my own learning and understanding about what the role of AI is. But I'll also say that maybe I'll close with one other one that I think is really a positive one, and that is that as part of even Open Education Global Strategic Plan, we talk about something called value co-creation. And this looks at what is the value that open education is creating, and how is it created? And we tend to often think about value as being monetary, but I think that we're seeing in open education the possibilities that money is not the core thing associated with this value co-creation activity that open education is, that it's actually about bringing people together to collaborate, to create something that is mutually beneficial in a reciprocal way that may or may not involve the exchange of money. And so building out different forms of value and seeing how that plays about going forward, I think will be really fascinating and something I'm looking forward to being part of. Alan Levine: I even think I forgot the question, but it's like- Paul Stacey: I know. Alan Levine: It's more or less Andreia like, I mean, the way you see the world right now and thinking about what it means coming into this organization. And it doesn't have to be things that are negative, there are very optimistic, and Paul mentioned quite a few of them and so- Andreia Inamorato: Yeah. Okay. No, I think I will follow the same line of thought of Paul. I agree with everything he said, and I think that we are in a moment of great opportunity for open education, really. I think it's building momentum now, and we should really tap into it because there's huge potential for us to be creative enough to see ways in which open education can help us tackle global challenges and societal challenges that are so present in our daily lives. So we know that we've always had the sustainable development goals for a few years now that Unco has developed and they've been working towards the SDGs. But apart from that, there are many other works around the world that particularly lately after the pandemics and these new social political developments around the world, separatists et cetera, there has been a lot of studies on how to create more cohesive societies, and people with more values towards the environment we live in, towards the community we are embedded in. So for example, in Europe, there is this concept of the twin transition, twin being digital and green transition because we know that we are moving towards an ever more technological society and we need to be inclusive, but we also need to use technology responsibly as we have mentioned before, AI and other things. But we also need to be able to use technology. And we know that many cohorts of people are not entirely there yet so we are working towards building that digital competency in people towards being able to being responsible consumers, using digital technologies for education, for teaching, for learning as workers, so on and so forth. So the great transition, everything related to climate change. But then there's now this concept of the triple transition that also includes the social. We are going through a social transition right now in which we need to further citizens' engagement now in everything that happens in society to broaden their understanding since information flows so freely as well as fake news. We really have to empower people to be able to understand the world we live in to make their choices, informed choices. And I think that here, open education plays an important role. So going way beyond open science, which was fantastic also with the example that Paul gave in terms of opening possibilities for us to have vaccines during the pandemic from opening resources because everyone deserves to have access to knowledge. But now how do we put all of this together to help in terms of dealing with these social challenges, building more citizens' engagement. There are more and more projects and ways of thinking about open education that involves lowering carbon emissions or perhaps dealing with climate change or anti-racism as Paul just mentioned. So I think that social issues now are very important at the core of our political agenda. And through open education, we can help tackle them even by doing simple things as we've always done. When we create an open online course, not even necessarily a book, and just by making it available, we're making knowledge available to people who really want to know from trusted sources such as schools, colleges, universities, so we can teach people more about a more sustainable society, financially speaking, climate wise, so and so forth. So I really think that if we engage further with the social aspects and try and make open education more relevant in terms of social challenges, we can even open new roots for action when it comes to openness in general. So it's not only about government and teachers and students anymore, to me it's now about citizens' engagement as a whole, an opportunity. Alan Levine: And almost like as Paul described, the value not being monetary. It's the value of openness is it creates the potential for perhaps things we don't anticipate that can come out of it just by virtue of it being open. So glad we're having this conversation, which we could go on for hours. Andreia, so you have the microphone to talk to the entire global open education community. What do you- Andreia Inamorato: What a privilege? Alan Levine: Yes. What would you like to ask them, or how can they help you through this period? Andreia Inamorato: Oh, this is fantastic. Thanks for giving me the opportunity for that. You know Alan, I am a researcher. I have been educated to be a researcher and I've been working as a researcher for many years and I'm still involved in research and I don't plan to leave it behind because I understand a lot of the world through research. And for the ones who do not know, I started work in open education back in 2006 at The Open University, UK when I was doing my PhD in education and technology there. And my very first project was OpenLearn. And back then I was already trying to understand how people were engaging with open educational resources, at the time, teachers. So we were running focus groups to see how they were modifying content. We had a lab space within the OpenLearn platform in which people would repurpose and remix and put back content. So we were try and track users, see where they were in the world, their profiles and whether teachers are comfortable or not to remix content. And then I see that as time went by, a lot of those questions still remain. We have many answers, but we do not have conclusions to all of those. Sometimes we feel a bit alone this movement thinking, we are not really sure of who is making use of it, but we know that it's making some change in the world, as Paul said. So for me, I think it could be very interesting to hear from the community in general, what are the big barriers to open education in their part of the world. Many people still tell me it's the academic stuff, they still don't understand it or it's just a proportion of people that want to engage with it because there is lack of understanding of what it means. As I said before, one needs to engage with the concept to truly understand it. So it would be great to understand and to hear from members and know members their barriers, but also their hopes and wishes, what they think is going really well, or anything that they think would be available for us to focus on that could really bring global value. So I think that listening to experiences in general from members would be fantastic, and I'm very open for that. In fact, Alan, I would really like to open up some space in my agenda as of the beginning of 2023 to have one-on-one conversations with members that are willing to, short conversations in the beginning for them to get to know me, for me to get to know them. And I think this will be a good opportunity for me to increase that knowledge in terms of the community. And then obviously also through OEG Connect but then you can tell them about it yourself. Alan Levine: That's fantastic. So our global audience, you've just heard that, that you're being invited. You can have one on one, and I can already say from my experience- Andreia Inamorato: Oh my God. Alan Levine: ... it's enjoyable talking to Andreia. And also Paul, your chance to talk to everybody, what should they do to sustain the work you've done at OE Global? What can they get to do to help Andreia take over as executive director? Paul Stacey: Yeah. Well, I really like Andreia's reach out for individual one on ones. I think that what I would ask is for this engagement part, I think Andreia's right that one of the things that really builds this Open Education Global community is engagement. And engagement can take many different forms. And I think even the work that you've been leading, Alan with the OEG Connect space provides a kind of universal opportunity for anyone involved in open education to get engaged. And the more engagement there is, then the more dynamic the interactions are and the more we all learn. And so I would really encourage people to engage with the work of OE Global that it's leading in terms of facilitating open education around the world and then engage with each other a lot. The interpersonal relationship part of open education I think is central to its success. And so building networks of peers that are fellow travelers on the open education road is really an awesome experience and one that I will continue to do with Open Education Global and I encourage everyone else to. Alan Levine: I had high hopes for this podcast, but I think they've been exceeded. I really want to thank you for putting up with my impromptu questions, some of which I made up as I was talking. But it's really great to have this kind of conversation. And I want to thank you out there, our global audience for listening to episode 46 of OEG Voices. We produce this at Open Education Global. In each episode I pick a track from the Free Music Archive because I think they're a great open resource. And so I found a song called Transition by an artist named Metre, and it's licensed under Attribution-NonCommercial Creative Commons license. And you'll be able to listen to this episode at voices.oeglobal.org. And we want to continue this conversation with both Paul and Andreia in our OEG Connect community. And always we're just looking for suggestions as to who else we should bring on the show. So many thanks again, Andreia and Paul for spending the time with me. I just can't- Andreia Inamorato: Thanks to you Alan. Paul Stacey: Yeah, thank you. Andreia Inamorato: Okay. I'm ready, I hope. Alan Levine: At the end, send us a greeting in Portuguese. And don't translate it. Andreia Inamorato: Okay. Okay, let's try that. Alan Levine: Okay. Andreia Inamorato: Learn more about us at oeglobal.org. [foreign language 00:51:43]. Alan Levine: Fantastic. Now, Paul, I don't know what you're going to stick on the end of yours, but I leave it you. Paul Stacey: Okay. Thank you. I'm not going to add anything. Alan Levine: That's fine.