OEG Voices 048
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Alan Levine: Welcome to another episode of OEG Voices podcast produced by Open Education Global, aimed at bringing to you people, personalities, and ideas of open educators from around the world and across the galaxy. I'm your host Alan Levine, and I'm really pleased to be joined today by my colleagues, Marcela Morales and Paul Stacey.

How are you both doing today? What's, what's in your world? . 

Marcela Morales: Hello. All good here. Very happy to be here and to speak with Robert, which I'm very excited to hear his trajectory in open . 

Paul Stacey: Yeah, I'm doing good too. It's Paul Stacy in Vancouver, Canada on a wintry kind of day, but sunny.

It's beautiful here. And yeah, I'm here cuz I'm a fan of Roberts. 

Marcela Morales: We all are. 

Alan Levine: They're lined up at the podcast door, you know, yesterday we announced the winners of the 2022 Open Awards for Excellence. Where's the time gone?

But we've tried doing the last two years is to bring on to the podcast the people who win the awards so we can learn more about their work and their interests. And so all the awards are really big, but we're really fortunate to have with us today, maybe the most prestigious one, the individual award for lifetime achievement that has been recognized this year to Robert Schuwer from the Netherlands.

And so it might take me a lifetime to ask you all questions, Robert, about Open Education but just let us know where you're sitting right now, maybe your current role and, what lies ahead . Then we'll talk about that thing behind you on the screen. 

Robert Schuwer: Well I'm currently I'm at small town in the Netherlands, Malden, it's called. It's near the city of Nijmegen, and Nijmegen is at the eastern part of the Netherlands. We moved here almost four years ago. But I've, I've been raised here, done my high school and my first university study, mathematics I've done in Nijmegen and the city always attracted me.

So I moved from Nijmegen when I got my first job in another part of Netherlands. But four years ago, we thought I want to go back. We managed to sell our old house and find, a beautiful house here in Malden. And I'm very happy to be here and living here actually at the at the edge of woods , we love walking in it. 

And what I'm doing currently, I'm actually finishing all kinds of tasks for my job. I had my last symposium two weeks ago apparently that was because, well, I'm retiring at the end of the year. I will be retiring like Paul.

I think we are the same age, Paul. And so I'm finishing up, but I definitely won't leave the field. We are at the end of a four year innovation program now in the Netherlands, where one of the topics was digital learning resources. Not only open resources, but digital learning resources.

And I was in that project, part of this program I was a project leader 44 years. And that's finishing now at the end of this year. So that's now taking me my time to finish it, in a neat way. 

Alan Levine: So now you have to pack up your office, right? 

Robert Schuwer: Well, actually since Corona, my office is mostly been at home.

Actually I've not sitting now in my normal room, but I'm in the kitchen . Cause it, it's more warm over there. 

Alan Levine: Oh, I know that, that's my usual workplace. I like the comfort of being in a kitchen. So you're back in a town where you spent some of your early education and you've studied math and computer science and a PhD in knowledge systems, but did anything trigger your interest in learning being in school in the first years? Like what kind of student were you when you started out? 

Robert Schuwer: Well, actually the interest of being a teacher and that, because that was my my first interest was already sparked at not kindergarten, K to 12 education.

Cause most of my teachers were wonderful teachers and they inspired me. So I thought I want to do that. And first I wanted to be a teacher in kindergarten. And then when I got that middle school and high school, I thought no, I loved mathematics, and I had really my best teacher was my mathematics teacher.

He was so inspiring. He was really a role model for me. So that inspired me to study mathematics to become a teacher in mathematics. I started my career in 1980 as teaching mathematics after I finished my study. But that was only for four years . And it was not because I didn't like it, but well, I don't know how it is in the states, but but in the, in the Netherlands when you get a job in the school, then well then you are the last who is who is getting the job. You are the first who has to move when there are not sufficient children in the school. Cause the number of children which start at school determines the number of teachers a school can afford.

And at that time each year, well, it was it was kind of tricky whether or not there would be sufficient children. And each year the school director had to write, actually confirm that I would be an teacher for another year. Otherwise, I had to do the service the, in the Army, army service.

But then I thought, well, this is not a, a good base to start a career or to, to build up a career. And so therefore, I, I choose to widen, my perspective and started study on computer science. And well, and that was in my last year as a teacher. 

At the end of that year, I could start in an company with my one year of computer science education.

Alan Levine: So, what was state of the art or, or what was the prospects for computers and education when you were making that switch from teaching to studying computer science? 

Robert Schuwer: Actually, none. In this company I was in a kind of support information center, it was called, and we had to support non educated people who are not educated in computer science who would use a computer for their own business. Like in building spreadsheet models or using small database applications for all kinds of reporting stuff. And we had to support those people. So, The, the education part of it, we, I had to give courses to to those people.

We were a small team who were responsible for that. And but also did some system development and tested packages. And so, so those, those applications packages. Actually we didn't use at that time, personal computers. 

But we, we use this system on the mainframe where you put conversational monitoring system. And there you could more or less simulate what we currently would call a personal computer. But that was actually a part of the mainframe. 

Alan Levine: I took a class in high school. We used an IBM 1130

Robert Schuwer: Yeah. It was it was 33 11 I think it was the thing we had, at that company. My practice in computer science that helped me a lot in my study because , they can relate to practical experiences, but I did nothing on education.

So, I wasn't thinking about the role of computers in education. It was not part of that business. When I after three years, left the company and started at the University of Technology in Eindhoven, I came down in the business science department where we address actually at the edge of computer science, at business science information sciences. It was actually the application of computers in business, like business information systems and how to develop them and methods to develop the modeling of data, modeling of process, all those kinds of things. That was the topic of the course of the program.

And I had to give courses on those topics and did not use computers for it. It was sheet where actually we were using and PowerPoints but not applications like currently. I was still at that time still not thinking about what I'm doing now, therefore, that was my previous life. ,

Alan Levine: But it's all part of the path. And so along that journey of being in computer science and math, do you remember what it was that first made you aware or sparked an interest in open education or just openness in general? 

Robert Schuwer: Openness in general, actually in, I heard about in 2001.

In 2001, I was working at the Open University, but then at the spinoff more or less a commercial spinoff of the Open University in the Netherlands, working with a small team. And they're one of my colleagues said actually, MIT has published all the courses free online. That means something.

That will mean something. That means that content is no issue. Content is not about content anymore. It is about what you are doing with it. So he had this idea and I said, okay, well, nice, fine. And I continued what I was doing and didn't pay any interest to it until five years later.

And that was actually when Fred Mulder, then the Dean of the university and he asked himself what would being involved with Open Education Resources mean for the Open University because it's already open, but then more classical way of open-- opening program, place, time and speed.

And so those are the openness, what he calls the classical openness . And then the digital openness can be added. But what would it mean for the Open University? Would it change the business model? What advantages would it bring? What risk would it take , , for instance for what the Open University was doing?

So he started a project, or he defined a project. Actually, he raised money for it from the Utrecht Foundation was one of the partners who gave a grant for this program. Actually we started two months later as an OpenLearn Initiative from the British Open University.

So we had a lot of contact at the time and then he asked me, do you want to be the project leader? So, so that's how I came into openness. .

Alan Levine: That there was an open university in the Netherlands, I'm curious, is there something about, the culture and  the shared beliefs in your country about the value of openness at a society level?

Robert Schuwer: Well of course, opensource software was already. I cannot say that it is a mainstream movement especially not at that time. But what I learned after we had done our first project at Open University, that the government became very interested in it.

And so I think the Dutch government I consider them one of the head runners at the forefront of national open policies. I don't know if you can call what they have an open policy, but, but they were the first at 2008 to define a project and finance a project , for visuals and nationwide initiative to be involved with openness, Open Education Resources.

It was not only the platform we provide, but it was more the thinking about Open Education Resources in all educational sectors from K to 12 to to universities. And they financed it for five years. The minister at that time, the minister of Education, he came with the name Wikiwijs, which was kind of a hint because everyone thought about something like a Wikipedia and then our first platform came out and they said, Hey, it's not a Wikipedia. So they. were a bit disappointed. So it is the spirit of the Wikipedia. It's not The Wikipedia. So we had to invent that kind of marketing talk to convince people to, yeah, to get them other expectations for it.

And the current government which is a coalition of several parts working together, they have in their coalition agreement, Open Education, Open Science should be the default unless safety prevents it.. So they have it and they are doing things to actually stimulate that in the Netherlands.

So that's on government level. And that of course has its influence on how people are thinking about openness, at least an education.

The Netherlands is always been a trade kind of country. We have some industry especially yeah, ASML, which is a big world player in computer devices or computer machinery. But it is more, the trade. The Dutch are very good in trading and that's where the wealth came and it's still coming from. 

So we have to be open, we have to share things. We have to be not speaking only Dutch, but also speaking other languages. People on the border of the Netherlands, most of them also speak rather good German because, well, that makes it easy to trade with Germans, which is a bigger country of course than the Netherlands.

Alan Levine: I was gonna ask about the Wikiwijs name. I just checked and it's got 400,000 lessons in there, so it's still very active, right? 

Robert Schuwer: After this program ended at 2013. And then there are actually two organizations in Netherlands, which support education in ICT related matters.

So we have SURF, which is especially for higher education. And we have Kennisnet. And Kennisnet is for primary secondary education, and they have adopted the Wikiwijs platform and they have revised it and developed it further and further. They got money for this every year and they are doing a great job in not only evolving this platform and developing more, but also involving schools and teachers to use this platform that they are doing that very they do in a nice job there.

Alan Levine: Paul, Marcela, you remember to cut in any time cuz otherwise Alan's gonna dominate here and give Robert a chance to hold his breath.

Marcela Morales: I will jump in quickly, First of all, Robert, when I got involved with open education over a decade ago, I was trying to get my hands on anything that I could find to get familiarized with open education in general. And your name kept popping up. So I've been reading your work and learning about it since then, like in 2010. So it's just a pleasure to have been seeing you evolve and grow, and be participating in so many initiatives about open education. And having this extensive body of work. I wonder now that you're saying that you're retiring, which I hope that you'll continue to be participating in the open movement.

But I do wonder if there was a specific project or initiative that has been your favorite. Since then and why? 

Well, actually I have several so I have not one favorite. Wikiwijs is actually a project. It was five years and I learned very much about this initiative and it has kind of shaped me as being an open practitioner, more actually than the OpenER Project, which was my first project because it was a cooperative, it was a very complex project, but it was also cooperation over all the sectors where you really had to think innovatively.

Actually the technical issues were the least difficult, but it was how to interest board members, how to interest students, how to interest teachers to be part of this, to adopt the sharing and re-sharing and reusing resources.

That actually where, what I learned a lot in those five years, and which I thought, well, that is more important than the technical stuff, so I'm not so in the technical development. Of course I have to learn or I have to follow also those kinds of development. And I'm doing it, but it is not where my strength is. So my real interest is in what can we do to widen adoption of OER and overcome all those barriers, which are mostly cultural barriers and psychological barriers and not so much technical barriers.

That's something which I've been involved in since, well, actually since 2000, and the rest of my career. And actually the last eight years, my professorate was on this topic. That's what's what my interest and what I learned a lot of but cause you asked for, my favorite is the, the nursing project I've been involved in the Netherlands.

I don't know if you know this initiative, it's actually in the Netherlands. The 17 Universities of Applied Sciences offering a bachelor of nursing are since 2017, collaborating in creating and sharing and reusing OERs. They had project grants for the first three years, but they are now still going still involved and still very active on this.

And they are actually an example in the Netherlands. There's a lot of reference to the nursing project or other projects to learn from it. A couple of weeks ago, the project leader and myself have published a report. We have studied all the documents which were available, data to formulate lessons learned.

What can we learn from this project? What have we done good and what could have been better? And it is only in Dutch unfortunately, but we are currently also making a paper for it and I think it'll be next week and otherwise the beginning of next year, we will send it to a journal and hopefully they willl accept it.

And of course there should be a lot of revisions . I hope we publish it next year. 

Paul Stacey: I've been super impressed, Robert, over the years with, not only the projects you're doing, but the mentoring you do. When I was most recently in Nantes listening to many of the people that you've been collaborating with, they're young, up and coming people just getting into open education and I wonder if you can say a few words about what that process has been like for you to be a mentor. 

Robert Schuwer: Oh, I loved it. Really, this last four years, this program, , this innovation program I had to do two things. I had to lead the project, but I also said to myself, after this project, it's finished. You are retiring, and then of course you can still do things, but you won't be on the forefront. So other people should take it over from there. Yeah. And there are a lot of young and very ambitious people and they were involved in my project.

So, I could actually step aside a little , and ask other people to say, okay do your thing, present at OE Global, for instance, in May. A lot of people who were there, it was the first time at OE Global, it was actually the first time on an international conference and then an international conference on openness.

And they were presenting and they were bloody nervous. And when they were presenting, I was very nervous because, I had coached them and, I said, okay, this is a friendly community. There's an open community, and they will not be harsh to you.

And the least thing they can say "interesting". Like English say, but this is very, very friendly and so don't be afraid. And so I was very proud of this community being there and doing a thing and presenting. And some of them I had mentored for this occasion.

And I can step down, I can really step down. In my last symposium one and a half week ago I mentioned that because the first OE Global I was, was in 2007 . I think none of you were there? At that time there were 40 people in my memory, most of them from the States.

And I was the only Dutchman there. So us Willem, but he said, no, no, we were not at that. We were the year after that. Then Willerm came aboard. . And now I think we were the biggest in Nantes. The Dutch delegation was the largest one. That was only a tip of the iceberg cause in the Netherlands there are so many people involved now in open education resources and open education and so this, it is, it is taken over. They can go ahead. 

Paul Stacey: Good for, you should be proud. Well done. 

Robert Schuwer: Well, it's not only my job, but I do see that I, I've added a bit to it, and that's and that's what I'm proud of.

So, I feel  very grateful,but also, well, satisfied about my career actually. 

Alan Levine: And in the vein of mentorship and also mentioned previously the influence of Fred Mulder. Can you tell us about the startup of the GO-GN? The Global OER graduate network? That's incredibly successful.

Robert Schuwer: Yeah, actually it is. And that was Fred's idea. That's not my idea. I helped him at the, and not from the very start. But it was Fred who when he stepped down as Dean in 2010 , he had four or five years before he could retire. And then well, what shall I do? So the, the  OUNL said, okay you can be a professor because yes, he was a professor.

And he got the UNESCO chair, together with Rory [McGreal]. They were the first two UNESCO OER. And then he were thinking, okay, what shall we do on the UNESCO chair? And Rory said, well, I do this knowledge cloud-- OER Knowledge Cloud. That was his thing. And Fred realized, well, they have done a lot of research on OER or OER related topics.

Most of them are very isolated. So , they work in the institution. They do the research, but they are the only one being involved with OER. And they can talk maybe with the mentor. So, but, but they, there's not a network where they can talking like we are doing now. And so he thought, well, maybe we should create a network for this occasion. And I think it was Cable Green who came up with the GO-GN name because Fred had another name and in one of the conferences, he was talking about this. And Cable said, why don't you call it GO-GN? 

So I think Cable is the inventor of the name. And the idea was not to only involve the students, the PhD students, but also the mentors to be part of this network. They got funded and I think they are still being funded by the Hewlett Foundation.

And with this funding, they they could organize once or twice a year. There's those conferences, and in most cases it is connected to the OE Global or in the past also the Open Ed the conference two days before the conference started. This network or part of this network came together. They were funded because we could not fund everyone to be there. And that was actually the start of GO-GN. When Fred retired, it was handed over to the OU UK to the team of Martin Weller, and they have really extended it.

And well they were alumni. They involved alumni. They have all kinds, they have really widened it and, and then extended it. 

Alan Levine: And it's an incredibly highly functional network of educators. It is that, that just keeps getting better and better. So definitely proud to see that happen. What's on like your, your current, front of your brain interest? Like what are the topics that are capturing your curiosity right now? 

Robert Schuwer: Sustainability. And then sustainability of OER initiatives. What puzzles me is when I started visiting conferences in 2006 and so on I think it was until the time of the MOOC, so until 2011 to 2012, that in every conference sustainability in business models or whatever was a big part of the program.

There were a lot of presentations and then, suddenly no, no presentation at all about this topic. And it is not solved. It's not solved. Many projects struggle when the funding ends to continue the efforts. That's too bad because it is two years in most cases, they have created a wonderful collection of OERs, but it is not maintained.

And then after two years, after the project ends, well this, this collection more or less becomes worthless because it is not maintained, it is not updated. And then and that's too bad. So I want to continue my, my work on that topic. So, together with Ben Janssen, of course, because especially in the last eight years, have done a lot together with Ben Janssen.

And after my move here to Malden, Ben lives in Nijmegen. So in 20 minutes riding by the bike, I'm at Ben's place. And we can get along very good, very good together. Actually we are close friends and so Ben is already here. He's 71 now. So he's he's already retired for, for a couple of years.

But we want to do those kinds of well, research actually-- we want to dig deeper into sustainability and hope to come up with some lessons and experiences. ]

Alan Levine: Oh, there's some great synergy gonna happen there. Yeah. Fueled by bicycles. I like that idea. I was looking at your blog and you have a recent post on OER and where do we go from here. Yeah. Rather, rather sweeping, like again, like what do you see as this next horizon for OER?

Robert Schuwer: Well, I think In 2030, and I do it for the Dutch situation, cause that's the situation I know the best. And there is now in January, they're starting a new program, national program for eight years in which digital learning resources and among them, open educational resources are part of the program. And the goal of this program is that in 2030 it should be all levels of education. If all levels in higher education, every teacher should be aware of OERs, should have the skills and the knowledge to work with OERs and to mix those OERs with commercial learning materials, to create what we have called the optimal mixture of learning materials.

Because it is not only open. There are a lot of good commercial materials also in the field. But it is the combination of both, which should support students and teachers the best in reaching the goals. And for this as also, it is also necessary to come up with good agreements with publishers and tech companies on the conditions their platforms can be used.

And where it is not and where still the institutions are in the lead and not the platform. So, so that's one thing we have we have managed to accomplish in the last couple of years, that all board members of higher education institutions have signed an agreement that they would collaborate on this, to come up with this set of agreements with publishers.

And that should form a basis to ultimately come to this optimal mix. And they've also agreed to to really make open education resources big in the Netherlands. So, so that that could be a worthy alternative, for instance, in cases when you cannot come to agreements with publisher.

So, that's for the next coming eight years. Those are two important milestones to come to this situation that working with OER should be as normal as working with classical textbooks was 10 or 20 years ago for each teacher and for each student also.

That's what's going on in Netherlands. And that is what I also trust that will be the case in 2030, that was also how I ended my blog because when I started in 2009, 2010, Fred Mulder said to get OER mainstream, it'll take 20 years.

Well, 10 years have been past since then, so 2030, then it is 20 years later. I think all the conditions are now. There's the UNESCO OER recommendation, which our government has signed. There's a UNESCO Open Science recommendation. The Netherlands had signed it. We have this agreement with all board members from higher education.

We have this program, which is huge with a lot of money from the government where this OER is part of this program. And there it is a lot of very interested people who want to go further with it. So, if the lights are green, it is now or never.

And and I'm convinced it is now. And, people really will take the responsibility and work on this. And of course there will be drawbacks. Certainly will be barriers, but I'm convinced that in 2030, this goal, this, this picture I have in my mind will be reality then in the Netherlands.

Alan Levine: So that's quite a commendable national commitment to support this, to have that kind of long range vision, plans and projects. We started our pre-recording talk about sources of energy, with your image of the black hole in your screen

But we're talking about a source of energy for open education happening there in the Netherlands. 

Robert Schuwer: Yeah, it is. Really. . 

Alan Levine: Black holes maybe the negative connotation, but we talked about some of the positive ones that come out of that. 

Robert Schuwer: There is actually a lot of energy and there's a lot of really on all levels.

It is not only the teachers or the institutions but it is also the national level, the government the collaboration of all the universities and universities of appplied science and vocational education. At the same time also an eight year program will start on open educational resources for primary secondary education to widen adoption also in those sectors. That's a program apart from the national program for high education. But there's also a lot of money going in there. as grants from the government, they are investing in it.

So they really want to make this happen. 

Alan Levine: Paul, Marcela, I have to say it's pretty obvious why Robert was recognized for a lifetime achievement and he is not even done yet. We know that! , 

Marcela Morales: No no, no, no. 

Alan Levine: Did you get your your 3D award? 

Robert Schuwer: Hey, did you send it already ? 

Marcela Morales: No, not yet.

Alan Levine: Oh, did I spill the beans? . It's supposed to be a surprise. 

Robert Schuwer: Every morning I go to my mail box, but still... 

Marcela Morales: It'll be there soon. 

Alan Levine: There's a nice surprise coming. I'm terrible. I can't keep a secret from anybody. 

Robert Schuwer: Ah, the same with me, Alan. It's hard for me also. 

Alan Levine: For me, Robert, it's been a joy to have the conversation. We've exchanged emails, but your enthusiasm and motivation, I can see why it's inspirational to to people that you mentor. So congratulations again. Paul, Marcella, you wanna put anything in the mix here? 

Paul Stacey: Well, I will just say, I mean, I think Robert's been an inspiration for me too. And so it's not just the people that he's mentored directly in the Netherlands. And I like the way that he speaks with such passion about this work. And I think that it requires that kind of passion to make it possible to achieve that 2030 vision. And I feel like Robert's passed on that passion to so many other people that I feel he's right. It's gonna happen. Thank you, Robert. 

Robert Schuwer: .Oh, you're welcome. Well, actually I was so surprised when I heard that you gave this lifetime achievement award. Because, well, I know I had this impact in the Netherlands, but I didn't realize how that my impact was more than only in the Netherlands. I, I didn't realize it really. So, thank you for this recognition. 

Marcela Morales: I chime in on the congratulations. Yeah, the same. Well, now you know that everybody's reading the work outside of the Netherlands, so, it's wonderful. And we will keep an eye on you because we know that you're gonna stay active.

And thank you for all your contributions to the open education movement. 

Robert Schuwer: My pleasure. Thank you. 

Alan Levine: I have another question because I came across your interest in classical music 

Robert Schuwer: On my . my website? 

Alan Levine: Yes. Yes. I read websites, but can you talk about this connection you have with your brothers over music? It was just a beautiful thing that--

Robert Schuwer: It started in 2018. The course of it was not so good. It was when this Swedish DJ , when he died, I don't know his name. I have to look it up. I've forgotten it. 

Alan Levine: It started with a G, wasn't it? 

Robert Schuwer: Avicii. He died in in 2018. And I have an app group with my three brothers. And well we talked about this and then it came out that , my youngest brother still followed this current music.

And he proposed the numbers of others you should listen to this and you should listen to this. And he did it every Friday. And because the rest of us , we were stuck in the seventies and eighties . But he had moved on and then I thought well I can do the same, but then for classical music.

So I started posting in this app group every week, a proposal about some classical music. And I told about something about the work. And then after one year or so, I thought, well, I can also put it on the website and more people can maybe enjoy it. 

So I did, and I have done this for four years, but I have now stopped in in September to do it in on a weekly basis.

And since then, I have not posted to it, but I think after retirement, I will not pick it up on a weekly basis, but I will continue to now and then post some new things I came along, Works I came along. To post it for other people to enjoy . 

But there's always been a passion for me, classical music, so to play, but also to listen to it.

And my brothers really weren't so knowledgeable about this, and they really wanted to know more about this. Actually, two of my brothers, the third brother, he tried and he tried, he said, no, no, it's not my, kind of music. Sorry, Robert. I admire what you're doing, but , it's not evident I'm going to like this . 

Alan Levine: Well, there's a metaphor for teaching, right? You do everything you can.... Your brother tried, right? ? 

Robert Schuwer: Yeah, he tried, but he said no, it's not , my thing, so, okay. 

Alan Levine: Well, thank you so much. Paul, Marcela, of course, Robert, for being here. And thank you for people listening to this episode of OEG Voices.

And again, it's a podcast we're producing at Open Education Global. Every episode I like to mix in a different bit of open license d music and in honor of Robert's music, I found a bit of a Beethoven recording by an artist named Circus Marcus from the Free Music Archive, and it's licensed under an Attribution Non-Commercial license.

We encourage you to think about using the Free Music Archive for your projects, and you'll find this episode at our website voices dot oeglobal dot org. We hope you engage in some more follow up conversations, questions with Robert in our OEG Connect community.