Episode 73: Board Viewpoints with Katsusuke Shigeta and Rajiv Jhangiani === Intro Music and Selected Episode Quotes --- [00:00:00] Katsu Shigeta: Open Education is global activity. If Japanese faculty and staff hope to conduct open education more, they should know about how open education conducts overseas because each region has educational backgrounds and history. So we should reflect other regional issues to our own educational styles and activities. [00:00:34] Rajiv Jhangiani: I'm very fortunate to constantly be at tables where I look around and think, I'm not the only person who's pushing for this now. I'm not the only person to whom this missing gap is evident. So that's really wonderful. It's emboldening. And it also means there's a little less emotional labor, as well. So I just see it, the whole thing that we talked about years ago about what if open was the default. Yeah. That's within our grasp. [00:01:06] Alan Levine: Hello and welcome to episode 73 of OEGlobal Voices, the podcast that we do here at Open Education Global to let you hear the ideas, influences, interests of the people in open education. Conversationally in their own voices. I'm your host, Alan Levine. And this episode is another in our series of conversations with members of the OEGlobal Board of Directors. We call these "board viewpoints", where we share conversations with board members, to give you a chance to know them better as educators, and also as people. First we're going to travel to the north island of Japan, in Sapporo to speak with long-time board member Katsu Shigeta from the University of Hokkaido who was actually a guests for our second podcast episode four years ago. Following this we'll take a trip over the Pacific ocean to land in Vancouver, British Columbia to chat with one of our newer board members, Rajiv Jhangiani. Now, let's catch up with Katsu. Meet Katsu Shigeta --- [00:02:07] Alan Levine: I'm really pleased to welcome into the studio, Katsusuke Shigeta from Japan, who is joining us in his late hours. Welcome Katsu. How are you tonight? [00:02:18] Katsu Shigeta: Thank you. Thank you for the introduction. I'm doing well. [00:02:20] Alan Levine: It's ironic because some 60 episodes ago, you were one of my first podcast episodes almost exactly four years ago. Much has happened since then. You were a new dad then, and you just mentioned putting your children to bed. So obviously some great things have happened to you. How have the four years been for you? Changes in Education Post-COVID --- [00:02:39] Katsu Shigeta: Yes, it's a long time. So many things have changed, including my family. At that time, it was 2020. So it's in the mid COVID era. The education situation has changed dramatically on that era and after four years, so something changed, but other things are not, so it reflects how we deal with the education activity, especially in the higher education institution. And also open education changes on these days for the COVID-19 effect. We found some good effect, but other than that, we should utilize open education more, but I'm not sure how to do that. So we should talk about this issue too. [00:03:32] Alan Levine: Quite a lot to try to summarize in a simple statement. So let's back up. Tell us where you are, your physical, your geographic location, and also where you are, like your surroundings. It's late at night, so it looks like you're at home, but just describe for us where you are and where in the world you are. [00:03:51] Katsu Shigeta: I am in front of my working desk and also it's midnight in Japan. So when I look at the window. I just look at the dark sky, so nothing. And working at home is usual in Japan, considering that, this is my situation. [00:04:11] Alan Levine: How far are you from Hokkaido University? [00:04:14] Katsu Shigeta: Oh, it's just two kilometers from the university, so it's quite close. It's nice. Thanks. [00:04:20] Alan Levine: And just for curiosity, a reference where did you grow up? And as a child what did you think of school? What was your early education experience? [00:04:29] Katsu Shigeta: I was born in Yamaguchi Prefecture. It's west side of the Japan island. And actually the Sapporo is north side in the Japan island. So I moved from the far place from my birthplace to here. And I moved several times because of the job of my parents. When I remember my school life, so I was in a public school and a public high school. I know it's a private high school and a public university. So it's very normal path as a student in Japan. When I remember my student life, I mainly remember when I was a university student. And actually I am not interested in study. I quite focus on the club activity. I belong to gliding club for nine years, including graduate student. I took a license of it. And this is very important step for me because the gliding sport is, has both side of characteristics. It's individual effort and group effort, too, because we should support the other members to fly, and we should fly together in many ways. This is my precise experience, how we conduct success, individual and group. [00:06:02] Alan Levine: As I talk to people on this show about their early experiences and you can see it's influence. We did cover in that second episode, your entree into open education, you saw the presentation from the MIT professor and led you to come to the U S. And I went back and checked you talked about the beginnings of the OER Literacy Project that you've recently shared. Challenges and Successes in OER Projects --- [00:06:26] Alan Levine: Tell us how that project is going and appropriately, again, you're wearing your Adobe t-shirt because that's part of the project as well. [00:06:33] Katsu Shigeta: Thank you for reminding me of the past episode. And actually I've conducted the project to share OER among the public universities in the Hokkaido area. Actually that project was already stopped and ended because of the funding issue. The process succeeded in perspective, how we share OER among the institutions to conduct liberal arts education. But the main challenge was how we continue this effort. Because the seven universities included in the project, they tried to share the courses together in a video conference system . But they have a different curriculum, a different time schedule. Sharing the courses among the universities is quite challenging. For this reason, I tried to use OER. And use the flipped classroom settings for that. And in some cases it works fine, but others not, because the faculty should change their teaching style. We achieved some success on the project, but continuing the effort is not easy. So currently I'm focusing on how to utilize OER and Open Education in the Hokkaido University. Creative Learning with Adobe Express --- [00:07:54] Katsu Shigeta: You mentioned the Adobe collaboration. I am mainly focusing on creative learning. program in the Hokkaido University. We are using Adobe Express. It's a kind of a web application similar to Canva to create digital materials on the web. This tool would be nice for students which has not the same. special knowledge and skills for design, but they can make something to express what they learn in the classroom. So I try to connect this kind of tool and existing curriculum. I found some classes in my university that faculty ask student to create some videos or some website to show the outcomes, but they do not teach how to use the digital tools and how to create the digital content effectively. This is a point , I focus on to have better skills and knowledge [on] how to create digital materials would be nice for students to show their outcomes and what they learn in the class. This kind of skill could be effective after they graduate the higher education institution. So I try to connect the creative learning creative learning aspects, to show the authentic assessment and show the learning outcomes in the university together. [00:09:27] Alan Levine: So the professors are asking students to create materials, but they're more or less expecting the students to be able to do it on their own. What you're creating are things to help students not only do those specific assignments, but build the skills they can apply that elsewhere. What kind of feedback do you get from students who are using your materials? [00:09:47] Katsu Shigeta: I've been doing a class that a student created their own OER in the class as a website, to use Adobe Express. I have good feedback from students because they can express what they learn on their materials. And also, I teach the basics of instructional design and digital content creation in the class, so they can learn how to teach effectively the activity. Also I ask students to create their own materials based on their own interest. So this is important for them because they may have some context [for] what they want to learn in the university. My class is for the freshmen. This is important for them because they want to motivate themselves what they want to learn in there. I try to ask a student what they want to learn in the university, and also ask them to try to express what they're learning in the classroom. So that kind of combination would be important, especially in a liberal arts education. Perceptions of Open Education in Japan --- [00:10:51] Alan Levine: Again, maybe a super general question, but what is the perception students and your university colleagues think or see about open education? Do more people buy into it? Are they aware? Are they seeing the value from the openness part? In other parts of the world it's focused on more affordable materials for students. I'm just curious about, and again, asking you to generalize for Japan is a little ridiculous, but you're our representative there. . [00:11:20] Katsu Shigeta: This is a great question. When the Japanese faculty and students are reminded of open education, the keywords are Open and Online. And the open part is sometimes tough, especially for faculty. Some people ask the faculty to open their education, it would be difficult for the faculty concern, their own perception, but faculty and students think about online education as open education. So it would be easier for them because they are familiar with the online education currently because of the COVID-19 or technology enhancement or recently, Gen AI. Actually, what I am doing in the Hokkaido University is that we ask faculty to open their education using IT on campus. This is a critical issue for us because I ask them to open their education firstly on the campus. Some faculty may consider later to open it to the public. In this case, I encourage them to open their materials or their activities for the public. So this kind of the step by step activity would benefit the Japanese context. It's my perception. What do you think? I'm not sure. [00:12:46] Alan Levine: It's a similar sentiment that we hear from elsewhere. I'm also a little bit curious about, previously you were involved with the OpenCourseWare, Consortium in Japan. Is that still active? Has that shifted? Is there a collaboration between different institutions like there was, when that started? [00:13:07] Katsu Shigeta: We have been conducting OpenCourseWare for decades, and some universities continue that, including Hokkaido University. And we are seeing the situation that some faculty are more enthusiastic to open their courses, but others just prefer to open their learning materials on the university's learning management systems. But I found some good practices for open education programs. So it is a nuclear education program in my university, and it is funded by the government. Their intention is that they try to open their education to the public, to ask a student to come to the field more, because in Japan, the nuclear engineering faces a challenging situation because of the earthquakes 10 years ago. So they try to grow and they try to ask more students to study this field. In this case, they can open. their education in the public and ask more students to come to their field. This kind of promotion aspect is important for some scholarly field, but I'm not sure it covers in every field. Some faculty and some education program manager may prefer to open their learning. for their own reason. [00:14:37] Alan Levine: And of course, we're talking to you because you're an OE Global board member. It's such a challenge to be a global organization. It's a challenge for me to ask you these general questions about Japan, but just why do you want to be a board member? And what, what's your motivation? You've been with us for quite some time. How does it benefit you and what do you bring to the organization? [00:15:00] Katsu Shigeta: This is a great question. I may have two aspects for that. First aspect is my personal issue. Having a knowledge and experience about open education is very important for me. And having a connection and, collaborative effect experience. is very important for me. For this involving in the board in the OEG is very good opportunity for me. And the second aspect is a regional issue because Open Education is global activity. If Japanese faculty and staff hope to conduct open education more, they should know about how open education conducts overseas because the each region has educational backgrounds and history. So we should reflect these the other regional issues to our own educational styles and activities. This kind of comparison process is very important to promote open education in the regional scale. So having a connection is very important. I try to be involved OE Global activities as much as possible. [00:16:23] Alan Levine: And of course, we're excited coming up in, in November we're having our conference in Australia. Hopefully that's regional enough. It's still a distance to travel. Will we get to see you there? And will we be able to meet other colleagues from Japan that you know of who are interested in the conference? [00:16:42] Katsu Shigeta: Yeah, I hope to visit there and other faculty member hopes to visit the conference too. Because this OE Global conference is one of the important place that we learn how open education is happening in a global scale. [00:17:01] Alan Levine: Have you been to Australia? Are you curious about it? [00:17:05] Katsu Shigeta: Yeah. I went to Australia 20 years ago for gliding training. So that was very nice place. [00:17:13] Alan Levine: What's something that's rewarding for you outside of all the work that you do? What brings you joy away from your work? [00:17:20] Katsu Shigeta: This is my important topic. Because as you may know, the life as a faculty is quite challenging. They are conducting education and research. They always faces various deadlines. And also, they may have families like me, so they try to balance between the job and family life. And in my case I enjoy to play with family in the weekend. And also, I have a hobby of car restoration, to repair the old car. Yeah, repair the old car. [00:17:55] Alan Levine: Oh, you do. Interesting. So what car are you working on now? [00:17:59] Katsu Shigeta: I was working on a French old car before, but recently I've got a Japanese old car. I have a small garage, and in a weekend, I repair that, like a new car. And my current car is a convertible. . So driving a convertible on a Saturday morning is very comfortable. And this is my relaxing time. [00:18:24] Alan Levine: That's fantastic. I will ask you if you don't mind, , if we can share a picture of your garage, okay, that's great. , I'm going to ask you in three words-- I'm doing also a conversation for this episode with Rajiv Jhangiani, our board member. What are three words that describe Rajiv to you? What three words come to mind? [00:18:44] Katsu Shigeta: So I describe Rajiv, right? [00:18:46] Alan Levine: Yeah. Yeah. Just three words. Yeah. Three adjectives. [00:18:50] Katsu Shigeta: Oh, it's an interesting question. I met Rajiv before, in 2018, in Paris, in the Open Educational Summit. Three words--- Smart, Leadership, and Humanity. [00:19:07] Alan Levine: That's perfect. Yes. He's a good friend of mine and we're lucky to have him in the organization. [00:19:13] Katsu Shigeta: Yeah, he's very good, I think so, too. He's very important board member in the OEG. [00:19:19] Alan Levine: Again, I really appreciate you're up late at night. We do this for most of our meetings and we humbly send our appreciation for that. [00:19:27] Katsu Shigeta: Thank you for your joining me in this podcast. I'm very happy to talk with you. [00:19:32] Alan Levine: Wasn't that wonderful, right? And wait until you see the photo of the 1991 Honda Beat that Katsu sent us to share when we publish this episode. But now sit back and enjoy all the impactful and motivated words in the conversation I recorded with someone I've known for a long time, and hopefully we won't drift too much into nostalgia because Rajiv Jhangiani has a lot to say about open education. Enjoy this conversation. Rajiv Jhangiani Joins the Conversation --- [00:20:00] Alan Levine: Here we are in the OEG Voices studio. I'm so pleased because a good friend , colleague, and I just feel like we would ramble on forever-- Rajiv Jhangiani who's here as part of our conversations with our board members. This episode will be a combination of a conversation with you and the other board member, Katsu Shigeta, who I've already recorded and had a great talk with. So welcome Rajiv. How are you today? [00:20:24] Rajiv Jhangiani: Thank you. Thank you so much, Alan. I'm really doing well. It's an exciting time, with the kids home from school and plans gearing up for what's going to happen later in the year. But thanks so much for inviting me to be on this podcast. When I think of you, I always think about the fabulous times we've had together where, hadn't hasn't really mattered what we're doing as long as we're doing it together, whether it's with Brian Lamb and some of our friends over there or traveling, bunking in a random hotel somewhere in Phoenix it's a joy to spend every moment I get with you, Alan. [00:20:49] Alan Levine: And we'll probably drop a hockey reference, but we'll just put that one on the side.I like to ask people, of course, where they are like on a map sort of thing, but I also like to ask people to describe where they're sitting right now. So what is your location? Maybe on both those levels. [00:21:06] Rajiv Jhangiani: As you may know, I spent a lot of my time, on the West Coast, the majority of my time. So I'm at home in North Vancouver, British Columbia, which is the traditional ancestral unceded territory of the Squamish First Nation. I'm sitting in my home office against a wall that has 1, 2, 3, 4 ukuleles hanging off it. And in the foreground behind my, computer monitor, there's a bookcase, most of which is full of books and one section of which is full of cricketing memorabilia. [00:21:34] Alan Levine: All right. Yeah, we could go on about cricket, which I would ask all the questions. Could you describe what you just showed me and where that came from? [00:21:42] Rajiv Jhangiani: Yeah, I was describing one of my most treasured possessions that I keep in the office over here. And it's a beautiful block of wood, a very solid block of wood that's been carved. Imagine 3D carving over here, by the partner of a dear friend collaborator. Many of you will know Robin Derosa and her work. And he carved this beautiful block of wood to represent CC BY which of course is the attribution only license for Creative Commons. So a very appropriate, And very meaningful gift for me. [00:22:12] Alan Levine: There's so much we could do and we could talk about. Let's start with now. What is your current role? And I know people will know of your path through Quantlen Polytech, but tell us about what you're doing now at Brock University. [00:22:24] Rajiv Jhangiani: Now is a fun time because we're recording this on the 2nd of August, and that is one day past my two year anniversary at Brock University. And so Brock is a comprehensive university in southern Ontario, in St. Catharines, although we've got a couple of other campuses, outside. And I serve as the vice provost for teaching and learning at Brock. Of course, as a faculty member, I'm appointed in educational studies and psychology, but in my administrative role, I support areas and departments, including the Center for Pedagogical Innovation. Areas like, co op career and experiential education, student ombuds, professional continuing studies. And more generally advancing equity within academic operations. So it's been a glorious two years and, I'm in a very reflective mood about that at the moment. But yeah, I've been very grateful. It's been a wonderful home for the last couple of years. [00:23:09] Alan Levine: So what's your secret? How do you manage to do so much? [00:23:12] Rajiv Jhangiani: To be honest, a lot of it is just the people, right? I spent a lot of time in my career thinking about, when it comes to research, people like Robin, It really doesn't matter to me what the project is as long as I get to work with her. She's incredible. She enhances everything I do, refines every thought, every germ of an idea that I might float in front of her that she makes me feel comfortable enough to float. So that's how various projects have come up, come about with her. And I think that's true with the other work as well. At Brock, it's incredible. So I think that's part of it is what are viewed as accomplishments or developments are very much collaborative efforts. But for me, the major part of the secret sauce over here is the people-- and working with incredible people who are driven by the same values. A lot of it is, your mental health is a good function of the people you work with every day. And so by working with each other, by supporting each other, that mental health piece is doing well. And then of course we can go further. We can try and experiment. We can try to find ways in which we can make our lives better. So I think it's easier to do creative, interesting, important work when you have that base of trust and respect within your immediate team. [00:24:20] Alan Levine: I really joyfully remember the keynote that you, you gave at OER 24 in Cork. What you brought to that was so from the heart. [00:24:28] Rajiv Jhangiani: Thank you. That was a really special experience for me. As you will know, the OER conference crowd is such an interesting informed audience, so full of critical pedagogues, so many heroes of all of ours in the mix, that, to some degree, it's somewhat intimidating, right? So I think the only way to try and add some value and contribute something helpful to folks is to speak from your heart, speak the truth that, maybe engage in some storytelling. But being unafraid to have some fun with it as well. Yeah I treasure that experience, but probably especially the few days before hanging out with Tom Farelly in his home, and, rigging up, a bit of a strange set up on, on his kitchen table with the last minute idea to make it a little more visually interesting. But I think that's part of the joy to interact with folks like that, who again, like Robin, give you the confidence and support that you can experiment, that you can, improvise, and you can do so knowing that it's all right. If you fall flat, it's okay. It's not a big deal. And that's part of that vulnerability of openness. And I think modeling that is important, but it's a special treat to be able to do it, especially in front of people who you adore so much. [00:25:35] Alan Levine: I always like to ask people as well to tell us where in the world, you grew up. And then, what did you think of school as a kid in that place? [00:25:43] Rajiv Jhangiani: I grew up in Bombay, India, now known as Mumbai, much to my chagrin. It's a small city of about 25 million people. It's a very interesting place to grow up. A real country and environment of stark, dire contrasts. I think I was fortunate enough to be attuned to some of those contrasts, right? Growing up in a background of relative privilege, but against the backdrop of a lot of poverty. And then of course, losing a lot of that privilege along the way, especially economic security, which helps you to better understand the things that you've taken for granted. But school, my God, I adored school. I certainly found, incredible teachers, mind you the occasional, not so incredible teacher, But especially with extracurricular activities, that's where I really flourished. So if you were looking for dramatics competitions, singing competitions, elocution competitions, pretty much everybody in my house. So I think, Harry Potter style houses, would very much expect me to be at the front of the queue. It was very meaningful. It was English language instruction, what you would consider a private school, in North America. Dressing in uniforms every day, that sort of a thing, but wonderful experience. Even though there's lots of challenges with that kind of system and especially the way in which you're driven to memorize and regurgitate, not so much creative critical thinking, at least in that era. There's a lot of core skills or at least, abilities, even if it's just, the sense of work ethic, but the ability to do creative work as well in terms of the extracurricular that I treasure. And that probably shaped part of my journey. [00:27:11] Alan Levine: And I also, humbly acknowledge the experience of growing up in one country and going to another, I don't think people who haven't done it like me can really fully understand. Do you remember what your first reaction was when you opened the door in Canada? What, what popped into your head? [00:27:29] Rajiv Jhangiani: Oh, there was many things. It's interesting. I'm very grateful that I moved when I did. I had completed my first year of university in Bombay moved across, to continue my studies. So I came as an international student. When you're, let's say 18, it's a different sense. It's a sense of adventure. And yes, I was separated from my family. Navigating Life as an International Student --- [00:27:46] Rajiv Jhangiani: Yes, I was alone and I had to figure it all out. Especially, I had to figure out how to, live without the protections and supports of my family that you're grown up ensconced, by in India,. For me, I remember very much the visceral sense of adventure and excitement. I remember that. And I also remember just a few weeks later when I began my first courses in my first semester, at, post secondary education here in Canada, I vividly remember one of my first instructors, his name is Michael McNeil. He went out of his way to make sure I was doing well outside of school because academically, that was never going to be an issue, but he could see I was alone and trying to figure it out. And I remember, I'll share, this was so vivid for me. I was at the bus stop at the institution on my way home, probably, three, four weeks into my first term in Canada. And I remember praying probably as vividly as I've ever prayed in my life. And it was partly because I knew exactly what I wanted to do at that point. And it was to provide the kind of feeling for other students that he was doing for me. I knew immediately this is what I want to do. He's changing how I feel about a lot of things right now. And he made me feel a sense of belongingness, a sense of care, which was extraordinary. And so for me, that was a life changing moment and period in my life for more than one reason. And I give Michael huge credit for that, right? He gave me a sense of what could be done. Here's the magic. Here's the transformative potential of higher education. It's not about what you learn and what you do in the experiences. It's whether you allow people to feel a sense of belongingness, to feel welcome, to enable them to flourish, to again, to take those risks and grow, but it was extraordinary. It's been a wonderful journey and it's been, more than a quarter century in this country at this point, but I will also share that I think my experience as an international student, as an immigrant, is vastly different and greatly easier than those who come when English is not their first language, for example, or who deal with even further barriers and obstacles. I think mine was certainly not as difficult of a journey as others, even though of course there were some challenges along the way. [00:29:45] Alan Levine: And what was the thing where open education knocked on your door and maybe surprised you? A Twist of Fate: From Theater to Psychology --- [00:29:50] Rajiv Jhangiani: The true story is that I didn't actually go to college. I didn't come to. To Canada to study psychology at all, is a really weird story over here because my background was in the performing arts in India. I was in a dance company for a long time, and I went to an institution that was reputed for their theater program. But then I encountered one of the systemic academic barriers that, in these days, I work to dismantle, and it had to do with English language testing. Even though English was my first language, and I'd done the TOEFL in India before moving out, they wanted me to do their local English diagnostic test. Anyway, complications ensue, and I miss my early registration date because of this test. All of the theater courses are full up and now I'm halfway around the world with no theater courses when I've come here to study theater. And I'm looking despondent probably at the registration table. This was, in person registration in those days. And then advisor, I remember said, why don't you try psychology? She could have said try pottery or something, but, she went with psychology and I did. And so I think it was An interesting circumstance that led me into Michael's class, which then allowed me to find something I fell in love with. But psychology was certainly it. And then I went on to graduate school and all of that work and research. And it was only when I was an instructor years later, and I went back, I got the opportunity to be a faculty member at the same institution where I was a student that first semester I mentioned. Discovering Open Education --- [00:31:05] Rajiv Jhangiani: And that's where, I blame Clint Lalonde from BCcampus. He was spearheading a lot of the work related to the BC Open Textbook Project at the time. They had put out a call for faculty members who were interested in reviewing open textbooks. I had already learned about it when I had been working at Thompson Rivers University with Brian Lamb and other colleagues. So I was interested and then I found books and began to review them and began adapting them and started a fun journey that hopefully will keep going till the end of my days. But for open education, I credit both Thompson Rivers University's Open Learning Division and BCcampus for being my major gateways into this world. [00:31:45] Alan Levine: And it's a little bit mind boggling to think of the directions your life could have gone in, but it sounds like it went in the right direction. [00:31:52] Rajiv Jhangiani: Yeah. There's certainly, it's been more fulfilling, more meaningful than I ever thought. I was happily serving as a faculty member, loving teaching my students, feeling like I'm making a difference, trying to create that sense of belongingness. I would have been perfectly happy, I imagine, continuing down that path, but then I felt a bit like, there's that moment and I laughed about it in, at the Open Textbook Summit when I was speaking in 2015. But it was very much like that first Matrix movie. I was given the wrong pill and, there was really no going back at that point. [00:32:23] Alan Levine: Yeah. Took the right pill. Current Projects and Initiatives at Brock --- [00:32:25] Alan Levine: Let's talk about now, cause before we talked about some of your current topics of interest and your role at Brock. And so what's like top of your interest level right now in the work that you're doing? [00:32:36] Rajiv Jhangiani: Brock, it's really fun. Drawing on a lot of the lessons from what we built and grew at KPU, it's been fun to move to an institution where there has been some activity, but nowhere near as much, institutional support. So building and growing. And so I'm excited about a few things. We have been for a year and a half now running an OER adoption grant program, which itself is fun and incentivizes educators, it recognizes the labor involved and just even making that switch from an expensive commercial text to OER. But the best part about this is, this has been for the 1st year, it was entirely funded by our student association. Working very closely with our student association on this front. Now, the university also provides funds for that has been growing. And so we're building up. We're developing the parameters and application process for now, adaptation grant projects, and eventually we'll have creation grant projects, but also other pieces. We have, the creation of OER is recognized as part of the 10 year promotion process at Brock, which is a really special thing in the landscape of North America still. I hope it isn't for too much longer, but really mainly working with our colleagues in the Center for Pedagogical Innovation and in the library, as well as faculty and students to, to advance this work. Huge credit to my colleagues in the library in particular for being such wonderful collaborators, even the campus store as well. But it's exciting to be at this creative generative end of the spectrum where we're building things and we know where you need to go. So we've laid out a bit of a plan. We've engaged in strategic planning and now we're slowly executing, year after year. Working with the OEN, building data dashboards and integrating into our systems and creating publishing processes and workflows. This is just fun, right? Like I, you don't have to pay me to do this stuff. This is what I get a lot of joy. [00:34:19] Alan Levine: We won't tell anybody that-- we won't tell the administration. And you're also talking about some of the work you're doing in the province at a collaboration level. So what's happening there with this research that you're doing? Provincial Research and Institutional Self-Assessment --- [00:34:31] Rajiv Jhangiani: Yeah, so this follows up from research that Tannis Morgan, Irwin DeVries and several of us had done in BC years ago, developing an institutional self assessment tool. So part of what we've done, we secured some federal funding from the Humanities Research Council of Canada. So we've. adapted, updated, refined that instrument. It's called the ISAT for short, Institutional Self Assessment Tool. Now we have the ISAT 2. So we've updated it, we've released it in both English and French, openly, but just concluded, the data collection phase of a province wide study. So we've gone out to every university, every college, every Indigenous institute, invited them to participate in this self assessment study. We're collating the data and what's going to come now. I'm working on it right now. Actually, it was analyzing the data 15 minutes before we chatted this morning, is a province wide report to show us the state of practice in the province, a real sense of what is the institutional capacity to support open educational practices, writ large. And then of course, we can look at it by universities, by colleges, by Indigenous institutes, but every participating institution is also going to receive a customized report that gives them tailored recommendations for how they could advance their capacity within each of those different domains. And there's many of them, everything from professional development to technological infrastructure, to incentive alignment, to policy development and so on. We're really hoping, this is in partnership with not just Robert Luke from eCampus Ontario, but Catherine Lachaîne, who is from the University of Ottawa and a wonderful leader in the librarian community. And of course the delightful and brilliant, Oya Pakkal, PhD student at Brock, who I have the joy of working with in my lab as well. We're excited about what's to come. We're hoping for the province wide report to come out, sometime later at the end of this year and of course the institutional reports to follow. Just trying to draw on everything we've learned outside in collaboration and coordination with eCampus [Ontario], which, works closely with the government in supporting all post secondary institutions, trying to really inform a broader provincial strategy and tangibly move the dial in a way that makes the most of very limited resources. The Future of Open Education --- [00:36:35] Alan Levine: Now the very vague global question, like 2024 and reflecting -- your career has followed like the arc open education, focusing on resources and then pedagogy and practice and ethics and social justice. Where, what is the state of open right now? Is it getting clearer for people or is it broadening or and where is it going? [00:36:57] Rajiv Jhangiani: I hesitate to suggest that I'm any authority on this question. I think from my vantage point, there's a few things that are happening, which are all interesting. I think part of the thing I'm really enjoying is, we've already gone, when it comes to things like OER, from a marginal conversation to something that is very normative, certainly in North America around the whole question of particularly the first couple of years of undergraduate study and survey level tech courses and the displacement of those textbook costs. That's already fairly normal now. Okay. Broadening from there, integration of open pedagogical practices, perhaps even more when we talk about things like gen AI and assessment redesign, the move towards authentic assessment during the period of remote emergency instruction and the pandemic. So all of that's fine, but I see a lot more Institutional supports a lot more, systemic supports. So it's not just educators floating by themselves. It's labor that is recognized. It's labor that supported. It's not, swimming against the current quite as much, which is great. I often think about them as parallel streams when we think about everything that's been happening in open access publishing, or indeed, open science practices, and a lot of the conversation is similar. Of course, there's lots of overlap, but there's a point at which several of those streams merge and the waters mix. And there's really interesting conversations, that happen over there. And some of them are specific to disciplines. You look like folks who work in physics, for example, and the tradition often of how they share things in ways that are early and quick and preprints and other things like that, not necessarily the case in every discipline. And so it's an interesting entry point to other conversations as well. In psychology years ago, psychological, statistical testing moved to R, the open source software package, for reasons that had to do with many things that were not necessarily about cost. It's a lot more powerful, it's a lot more flexible, other things like that too. Plus, it didn't hurt that IBM hiked the price by some 500 percent at one point as well. I think there's an interesting sort of merging of different worlds and an increasing cross pollination across those different groups and conversations. So I think for me, a lot of this goes to cut to the core of whether you're talking about open science practices, the sense of, pushing this boulder uphill, fighting normative practice, tradition, culture, hierarchy, the trauma that has been perpetrated onto people that gets perpetuated, at infinitum, that I see changing, right? So changing the state of the default for pedagogy, for resources, for science, that's, I think, ultimately what I would like to see things go, right? And I'm seeing enough of it. I will fully admit that I'm sometimes accused of being annoyingly positive, but I'm rather ferociously optimistic about where we're going over here. Because, at this point, a lot of the people who've come up early career scholars, who are attentive to some of the phrase and the fabric of higher education, right? This is a time where we're dealing with so many issues. Whether it's defunding, whether it's adjunctification, or other things like this. And so I think the more diverse the faculty base becomes as well, the more people get attuned to, "I know what it's like to experience food insecurity. I know what it's like to be excluded, as a person who has, experienced racialization or marginalization." And ultimately, those people become the tenure and promotion committees as well. So I think, It's one of those moments where I see increasingly the people at the table are increasingly the right people at the table. And so it's a real interesting moment and I see that momentum moving forward even more. So you are the people you've been waiting for. And I'm very fortunate to constantly be at tables where I look around and think, I'm not the only person who's pushing for this now. I'm not the only person to whom this missing gap is evident. So really wonderful. It's emboldening. And it also means there's a little less emotional labor, as well. So I just see it, the whole thing that we talked about years ago about what if open was the default. Yeah. That's within our grasp. [00:40:56] Alan Levine: And if anything that table, there's so many more people at it than there used to be. And that alone is quite, a thing to see. [00:41:04] Rajiv Jhangiani: Yeah. Some tables have gotten a lot more diverse, a lot more inclusive, which is great. And some tables have had to be flipped over and just rebuilt because they were not going to respect somebody's dignity. So nothing missed over there. [00:41:17] Alan Levine: You had posted in OEG Connect with one of our board viewpoints about this idea about applying principles and practices of open science in open education. What have you seen in terms of reaction to that? Cause I have to admit, like I had not even heard of the idea of hypothesis pre registration, which I imagine that's quite a hump to get people over the concern about that. [00:41:39] Rajiv Jhangiani: It can be, there's lots of ways in which, this is no longer pioneering work. I would say, even, In the open book that we published in 2017, there was a chapter by, Brian, sorry, I'm going to miss his last name right now, but he's the head of the Center for Open Science, the Open Science Framework, which advances a lot of this work. A lot of journals have signed on a lot of professional societies have signed on to the Transparency and Openness Promotion guidelines, TOPS , I think there's multiple concerns over here that this is addressing and openness is one of them. But even with pre registration, you can do it in a way that is validated, that is date stamped, that is actually embargoed if you want. But it's a way of ensuring that science is actually done correctly, which is not what we sometimes call harking, hypothesizing after the results are known, like you get some special bonus points for being like a soothsayer or something. No, it's okay. Do science honestly. But if you genuinely have a theoretical basis to make a prediction in a particular direction, pre register and then collect your data, You don't want to engage in fraudulent practices like P hacking, which is, you collect data, you start analyzing it, and you're like, Oh, it's really close to significance. Let me collect a few more participants. And then maybe it'll push over that, P less than 0. 05 made up magical threshold that, quantitative researchers have accepted over the years. So all of those are the kinds of things that we'll often have in conversation with students. And so certainly in my research lab, the Inclusive Education Research Lab, the graduate students and I, the undergraduate students and I, this is our normative practice, right? We will pre register our hypotheses when we have hypotheses, if it's not an exploratory study, for example, and that ensures that we have regard over there, but also openness and transparency. If we're running data collection with an instrument. We will share the materials openly that enables replication. Other researchers want to reproduce the work, try it in different circumstances, bend and stretch it. They can do it. They don't have to wonder what were the questions, what did they look like? And of course, open access publishing. It was a while ago that people started realizing that, look, if you're going to do research on the topic of open education in some way, It should feel, you should feel a sense of cognitive dissonance if you're publishing in a closed journal, that's, demanding a ransom from your university so that your colleagues next door can actually access it. That's odd. And so we often talked about, the consistency between if you're doing this work and, the Hewlett Foundation has done a lot of support for this as well. You publish open access at the very least, heaven's sake. There's no excuse not to have a preprint or a postprint that's in an open repository, but this goes a whole lot further. And it says, look, ideologically, you want to be consistent. If these are your values around openness, there are ways to reflect this in the entirety of the research process from conception to data collection, to publication, let alone the subject of study. So what does it mean to be an open researcher? For me, it's not just about that you're doing research in open education. It's that you're doing it in a way that embraces openness in science, that makes it transparent, that makes it collaborative, that makes it rigorous, quite frankly. And that of course also advances, the question of knowledge creation and open education. [00:44:36] Alan Levine: Okay. When those critics of you that say you're too positive, send them my way. Okay. I'll deal with them. [00:44:42] Rajiv Jhangiani: I adore that -- I think it's helpful feedback though. The critics are often ensconced again, within systems that sometimes jaded them, that have sometimes beaten them down, beaten that spirit out, and for good reason sometimes. So I think it's responsible to advance that kind of criticism. And it's helpful to me because it helps remind me of some of the contours in the landscape that shape the thinking and practices, right? So just because somebody's doing something that doesn't look open, it doesn't mean they're not open to it, right? I remember working with fellow educators in psychology who would only assign a commercial textbook. But the reason was is that they had collectively decided they would negotiate with the publisher and they negotiated a lower price. And it was only possible if they all adopted it. So these were people who wanted to save students money, but the way about it was actually in a way that we wouldn't call open necessarily. The values are there. So even with the critique it's certainly been interesting to get the pushback over the years, but it's all helpful, right? It's all part of the landscape. And I think understanding that, the experience that somebody has tells you about ways in which if they're not feeling safe to go in this direction, if they're experiencing barriers, that's a real barrier by definition, right? So you learn from it, you understand it, and you try and figure out how you can dismantle it. [00:45:56] Alan Levine: Since you mentioned it earlier, I ask, what does your gut instinct tell you that generative AI, I mean, it's already having an impact. Will it, will it change the way we think about OER and OEP, practices, or will we meld them in some magical way? Obviously that's another ridiculous question to ask, but, it's out there and it's, running loose. [00:46:18] Rajiv Jhangiani: Yeah, it's a tricky one. Again, I'm not going to claim to have any special expertise over here, but I will share some concerns. And I think one concern in general, which has already been an issue is just the, it's like paving over the etymology of knowledge. a core value of open licensing is attribution. Losing that is damaging, is dangerous. It's theft. So that's damaging. The normalization of that, because this is going to happen anyway. You're denying progress if you're not serving students, if you don't equip them to use. What I think is really missing over here is that critical, generative AI literacy. And that's what I worry about. Is it's not the question of could we use it? Sure, we could use it. Is there that thinking behind it? Is there the thinking of are you aware of the, on the one hand, you could talk about the environmental impact and the resources in the water it takes to support a particular single query. We could talk about the issues with intellectual property and data privacy and those pieces. We can certainly talk about the biases and amplification of societal biases over there. And after all of that critical analysis, if you still feel that it's actually useful in this particular way, it certainly might be still that calculus might still turn out in the positive for you as an individual. It reminds me in some ways of when open education itself has been practiced, divorced from some of that ethical reasoning and thinking, separated from some of that ethical calculus. And that has happened in the past. And we've seen the ramifications off that, and how even something as wonderful as we are with the potential to be wonderful can actually be advanced in a way that it has a neocolonial effect, effectively. You can use a wonderful tool for very nefarious purposes, even with the best of intentions. And especially if you're not experiencing some of those negative consequences, that's more likely. I think for me, the opportunity with Gen AI is to make sure we have that critical conversation is to embed that critical conversation. And especially if we're going to co mingle OER and Gen AI as is already happening, being attuned to those same ethical conversations to take the time to wade through that moral calculus. Because if you don't you're going to be talking about, a practice that ultimately further widens some of the inequities that we've been struggling to try and bridge over here. So for me, it's just another opportunity to ensure that the conversation continues to be aligned with values. But certainly it's a fascinating period. It's just another change. I don't think it's going to be the last one by any short but it's the latest in an increasingly high set of waves that are hitting our shores. And every time you're going to get the same kind of little jingle around it's here and it's going to hit you. And you can't bury your head in the sand. But at the same time, I think what you don't want to do either is to not just not bury your head in the sand, but not just stand there on the shore with your mouth open wide and just swallow the salt water without thinking. [00:49:18] Alan Levine: Brilliant metaphors. Thank you for the, for that. Balancing Work and Personal Life --- [00:49:21] Alan Levine: Can you tell us or share what other rewarding activities that you do away from all this work you do? What fulfills you outside of this? [00:49:29] Rajiv Jhangiani: Oh, gosh. Certainly, time with our boys is the very top of the list. No question. But outside of that, my wife and I like to travel occasionally. I engage in a lot of, sport. So right now I'm playing tennis twice a week and cricket at least once a week, going to the gym a heck of a lot. So a lot of fitness and activity, I suppose is a bit of a focus these days. But just time with the family. This last weekend, we went to Salt Spring Island, which is one of the Southern Gulf Islands off the coast of British Columbia. Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. So I think for me quiet time with the family and things that, sustain my body and certainly feed my soul. [00:50:05] Alan Levine: And that's where, of course, things like music, come in as well. You told me before we recorded that, this weekend, you're going to be playing seven hours of cricket. Can you let us know what that's like to play a game that goes on for seven hours? [00:50:17] Rajiv Jhangiani: You said that's the longest form. It isn't. There's a version of the game that goes on five days. If you imagine baseball with nine innings, this is a one day version of cricket. So it effectively has one inning. It's just each inning takes roughly three hours, it's going to be pretty toasty this weekend. So you're out in the field for half of it. The other half you're, in the sheds waiting for your turn up to bat. Unlike baseball, you only get the one shot to bat, of course so it's fairly high stakes. For me, the joy is, cricket is something I grew up around. I've certainly loved it. And to play cricket in a place like Vancouver, like Canada, where, your teammates are from, the West Indies, from Australia, from South Africa, from Sri Lanka. For me, there's a particular joy that comes from just, hearing the accents, interacting with folks who come from very different parts of the world and traditions, but who share that same joy. It's a special joy also because now my oldest son has joined my club and has joined the junior program over there. So watching him come along with his own interest as well, But for me, it's just joy. It's anytime I'm exercising and it's a form of sport. I don't really feel like I'm exercising. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of camaraderie. And with cricket, it's, I don't know how to explain it, but, I know Martin Weller, our friend, recently retired friend, and I often laugh about this because, he's the ice hockey fan living in the UK. I am the cricket fan living in Canada, and so we have some sort of sympathy for one another and the minorities that we are within our context. [00:51:43] Alan Levine: But, no, it's a connection to a part of joy that, I'm certainly happy that I didn't have to let go, even when I moved across the world. That says a lot. Closing Thoughts and Reflections --- [00:51:52] Alan Levine: I just want to, again, thank you. I, I just always relish the times we can have a conversation. I asked a three word association question. And I flipped this with, when I had my recording with Katsu. So can you describe your board colleague Katsu Shigeta, in three words? What are three words that come to mind when you think of him? [00:52:11] Rajiv Jhangiani: Thoughtful, Prudent, and Kind. [00:52:15] Alan Levine: That's very good. So you'll get to hear his response when I edit this andthank you again. And anything else that comes to mind that you want to, add on top of this, again, the whole point is let people get to know you, because you have this important role in OE Global on the board. It's really good that the board is interested in not being this thing that happens off to the side. [00:52:37] Rajiv Jhangiani: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. The board has been in a lovely experience for the last year. And I know there's been a lot of work happening. So housekeeping work behind the scenes. And we're talking about bylaws that the members will see. And we're going to have this general assembly get things organized moving forward for future success. But, I would just say that, I really want to thank you, Alan, because there's so much that you're doing. behind the scenes that people get that glances off, the work you do on OEG Connect , this podcast is an example, but, everywhere I look, you're such a community builder. And you've been doing this work before you began working with OE Global, right? I remember even just back in the day, you were blogging about, various things about, looking for stories of OER reuse in the wild whether it was building little pieces of edtech objects over there that people don't quite realize just how much of what we consider, oh yeah, that's a usual practice. Oh yeah, that's a tool I'm familiar with. There's a little sort of, Alan Levine DNA and a lot of the material around us in open education. And I absolutely do not think that you get enough credit for it. I really want to, at least on this public forum, thank you very much, because I only know a fraction of the contributions that you have made, in this landscape. But I think you're an absolute inspiration and what makes it even more, powerful is just how understated and humble and casual you are. Whereas, we live in a world where people will do particular things and then trumpet it from the rooftops. And, you're not among those people. But, you certainly deserve to be paraded in the streets, for all of the best reasons. So OEG is very lucky to have you, Alan, and certainly I'm very fortunate to call you a friend. [00:54:21] Alan Levine: Oh, thank you. That's not the purpose of the show, but you're allowed to do that. So thanks again, Rajiv, and look forward to seeing you the next time we get a chance and to fit a little sports in on the side like we did in Edmonton. [00:54:35] Rajiv Jhangiani: Maybe next time the Oilers will get a bit luckier as well. [00:54:37] Alan Levine: Oh, we got to check the schedule in Brisbane, right? [00:54:41] Rajiv Jhangiani: Thank you so much, Alan. [00:54:47] Alan Levine: Well, hello listener, who got to the end of this episode of OEGlobal Voices, the podcast that we do from Open Education Global. Thank you for listening in. Each episode of OEGlobal Voices features a different musical track selected mostly from the Free Music Archive. For today's board viewpoint episode, we found an upbeat track that really matches the conversations we had with Katsu and Rajiv. It's called "The View from the Window" by an artist named Ian Sutherland. And it's licensed under an Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike license. This is an exciting time at OE Global and for the board as we have elections now open to fill five seats on the OEGlobal Board of Directors. This means in future episodes, we're going to have some new voices to add to the board viewpoint series. You'll find this episode at our site voices.oeglobal.org. And we hope you engage in follow up conversations with our guests in our OEG Connect community. If you're out there listening and would like to share your own open education work, or suggest a future guest that we should have on this show, please let us know via our website or send an email to voices@oeglobal.org. [00:55:57] Alan Levine: Thanks again for listening.