Episode 080: Bryan Mathers on the Fabulous Remixer Machine === Intro Music and Episode Quote --- [00:00:00] Bryan Mathers: Yeah, the idea that you can create a template with certain creative constraints still works for someone who is very creative. Defining people as "creative" is problematic, but you know what I mean by that? Maybe, it's by bravery, someone who will jump in and start twiddling things, as well as people maybe who wouldn't see themselves as necessarily creative, but could actually create something that they were pleased with. You know what I mean? And that was them, so there's that agency, involved in the Remixer Machine as well. So yeah, you're, right, It's a sweet spot. If I add too many controls, it becomes problematic. So often the simpler the better, but if it's too simple, then there's not enough variation, So. yeah, there's a sweet spot there, definitely. Meet the Host and Guest --- [00:01:11] Alan Levine: Here we are, mid-October 2024. I'm Alan Levine, the host of OEG-- what are we the host of? Open Education, I'm gonna edit this out. I'm your host for OE Global Voices. This is the podcast we do at Open Education Global. And we just get a chance to talk to the people and, learn what makes 'em tick and, what interests them. And, we're just, honestly, this is pretty exciting because, we're gonna be talking today about Bryan Mathers who is-- won one of the Open Awards for Excellence. And I'm still editing podcasts from two of the previous award winners, but I'll get this one done pretty soon, Bryan. But just for some reason my podcasting is, has taken me slow, because I labor over them because the conversations are so good. But this is just to get a chance to talk to Bryan and hear his views. And we're gonna do a little bit of, I think brainstorming, of an idea because this is how Bryan works. So first of all, hello Bryan. And I always like to-- I ask people, where they are and of course they'll gimme a map location, but I also like you to describe for the audience, because don't see, like what is your physical location? Where are you right now? [00:02:23] Bryan Mathers: Thank you Alan. It's a delight to be here. I've known you for, quite a few years, so it's always good to have a blather with you. I'm situated in London. which is on an island off the east coast of Ireland, called "England" and you might not have heard of it. It's fairly insignificant. And, I'm in my shed at the moment, which is where most of the thinkery happens in the shed. My brother-in-law is a set builder, he sort of builds sets for TV programs and stuff like that. And he's probably-- he's probably one of the handiest guys I know. And he essentially put this shed together off various different reclaimed bits and pieces, way back 10 years ago. And it's, one, it's my favorite space really to be in, but it's, it's at the end of my garden, so it's just far enough away from the house to, to separate that creativity, on, on, on the projects that I work on. Yeah, that's where I'm at. [00:03:28] Alan Levine: It's like we're in the ma-- the lab where all the magic happens, the stuff that comes out of Bryan Mathers and Visual Thinkery. Bryan's Background and Education --- [00:03:36] Alan Levine: We'll talk about it, but I also ask, since you probably grew up on a different island than you are right now, where'd you grow up and what did you think of school as a kid? What was that like? What kind of student were you? [00:03:49] Bryan Mathers: Yeah. So yeah, I grew up in Ulster. Some people would call it Northern Ireland. And yeah, I got on well at school. I always thought I was pretty good, at schooly type things, but it took me many years to realize that my mom, who was a Maths and Physics teacher and, so essentially from the very start, I had an advantage. I just thought I was, I just thought I was smart. But no, it's, it's advantage-- small advantages built on top of each other. But I've always, I guess I've always, been reasonably creative, but not necessarily in a drawing sense, but just in a-- like I was always into Lego and stuff like that-- so , maybe an engineer's creativity? But essentially school, I, spent school avoiding paragraphs, so anything with numbers, anything with, with sort of other worlds, and, figuring them out. I was happy in that, but when it came to yeah, writing stuff in legible, meaningful flows, yeah, I avoided that like the plague, really. But it's funny, as an adult, I'm, rethinking a lot of the-- my, my education just from a point of, it's very clear to me now that I got the British version of Irish education and not the Irish version. So there's quite a lot missing, that I'm trying to make up for now. And, so for example, we spent the time thinking about the Battle of Hastings, which happened on a different island from where I grew up and learned very little about the stuff that actually happened on the island that I grew up on, which is Ireland. So, trying to go back through that and, wonder why that was and, and, make up for that. I think I've done quite a lot of that in, in, in in the last 10 years, So. I've got some beef, with my education. [00:06:00] Alan Levine: But, I, would well maybe guess that like you're surrounded by, like folklore and storytelling. I'm thinking of your-- I always remember last time I saw you, you had the potato shirt with the 20 kinds of potatoes on it, and, it's that's come from, where you grew up, right? [00:06:18] Bryan Mathers: Yeah. Yeah. I, again, I think we all, we look, or certainly I look for things that I recognize, or that I knew growing up. I find it hard to find the Ireland that I recognized as a kid, so when I talk about potatoes, and that's me on home turf, because we eat potatoes every day. There's quite- quite a bit of our culture was centered around the sort of growing and harvesting of potatoes. So, that stuff totally resonates. Yeah. Yeah. In recent times, I've drawn a bunch of cartoons about potatoes and about famine and things like that, Yeah. Yeah. I really love exploring stuff visually as you well know. I, I have a journaling process where I just start in the middle of a page and just try and go in different directions. And it always surprises me the sort of stuff that- that I end up reaching for and the sort of stuff that- that starts calling you in its direction. So that's where a lot of things come from, or meaningful cartoons come from, whatever. But again, it's just, it's reflective. It helps me just trying to understand myself, in the world that I'm in. [00:07:38] Alan Levine: Yeah. The Creative Process and Visual Thinkery --- [00:07:38] Alan Levine: we should start-- I'm here having this conversation. Like you said, we've known each other for a long time and, many people are familiar, but describe the work that,- that you do now. What's, your niche? What's your-- when you say, you meet someone and someone says, "What do you do, Bryan?" And, what's your, spiel? [00:07:57] Bryan Mathers: Oh, listen, it's a nightmare. It's a nightmare because, I,- I've made up this job that I do and therefore it takes me a while to explain it to people really. But if you've ever worked with me on something, you'll know why that is. It's a little bit different, but it's a creative process that starts with conversation and creates cartoons from the conversation. Often, those cartoon-- I mean cartoons in the sort of widest sense because they can be cartoons, character speech bubbles, that sort of cartoon, but they can also end up in little alter egos, even brand alter egos, book covers., all sorts of, visual, stuff. But yeah, essentially over the last 10 years or so, I've been using that process to create meaningful "social objects", I guess for the clients that I work with. And a lot of those people tend to be activists. So they're either sort of educational activists or they're environmental activists. So I've got two branches of work really. And I love working with activists really, because they deeply care about the stuff that they're involved in. And therefore, when you get them talking about it, out come these little metaphors and stories and humor and, and that's, the gold. Whereas if you sit down with a politician, you'll get the opposite of that. You'll get bluster and hollow words and.. But I don't get to work with politicians these days, which I'm very happy about. But, I do very little corporate work. It's generally all in that either education activist or environmental activist sort of bubbles. [00:09:56] Alan Levine: And, again for the audience, you, if you've seen the publications from GO-GN and the graphics on the website, of course the beautiful penguins, and all the stuff for the ALT conferences. Bryan's work is very distinctive. I know when I see it, it's like I know that's Bryan Mathers, that's Visual Thinkery. And that's quite an achievement and-- and certainly a lot of it is, available to see on your site. You started that thing where it starts with a conversation and I-- I don't-- may, I don't know if you realize what a gift that is, because I've been part of these things and, we're just going back and forth like we are having a conversation and the things that you're able to- to pull out and summary. It's like I didn't even realize I said something about that. And, that, that's incredibly valuable. Those organizations are lucky to have you. [00:10:52] Bryan Mathers: Oh, thank you. It, it always amazes me that, Alan, it allows me to trust the process, because there-- there is so much in conversation that most of us miss. Yeah, that's really apparent to me that,-- that like even there's a difference between me harvesting a conversation live and then what I like to do is record it and go back through it and, spend time with the words. And, again, you get me on a different day, having eaten different food or slept differently, whatever and I'll see-- I'll notice different things. Because in the conversation, in an hour's conversation, there's just, there is just so much. So, I-- I'm still fascinated by conversation and how also just if you've say a group, got a group of three or four people, how you get the best out of the conversation. So how you bring out those quieter voices or how you explore a rabbit hole. and then pop back up and go in a different direction. Because you don't know where the gold is. And even when I'm creating it, I don't know where the gold is. So I tend to create as many different ideas as I can and then allow the client to see where the gold is. Because they should know, and that's also really, helpful because it's just I'm not an agency telling you-- you know what this needs to look like. You'll know it when you see it because it came from our conversation. Yeah, so I'm still fascinated by conversation, really. [00:12:29] Alan Levine: Yeah. and I remember we had a conversation at OER 24 at the end of the conference. And we were talking about, how do we bring that conversational approach to conferences themselves? And, I'm still, I'm still mulling it over. But I wonder I imagine, okay, Bryan's got this client and they have the conversation. He goes out to the magic shed and out it pops. And I know I, I'm being a little bit facetious, but what, do you do like when, you get a real block, like how do you, like, how do you like, come around to saying it's not flushing, it's not emerging. [00:13:05] Bryan Mathers: Yeah. there's multiple answers to that question. Because the client often wants you to be a magician, but I know that I'm an engineer, so I know that it's about process. And I, I, I also-- I've learned enough in the last 10 years about how that process works. How I'm feeling really matters, so if I'm feeling flat, then it's harder to get the ideas out, whereas if I'm feeling positive. If I'm,-- and usually that means I have to start my day, right? So if I get a little bit of, even if it's only like 10 minutes of a journal just to 'cause I can be in my head, I can be overthinking stuff. I can-- but if I'm, if I've made a marker for the day and started out, then generally I'm up for curiosity. I'm up for, seeing stuff, spotting stuff, and, developing it. So if they're not coming, you just park it, You come back to it after lunch and- and you'll start seeing it again. And the beauty of it is if you've recorded the conversation, it's still there. You can rewind and go-- but there's a spider sense to it though, in that I often find myself going, I-- there's a bit in this conversation that they're trying to say something, They're trying, they're reaching for, so what is it? What? And so I'm often jumping into Google images and going, they used a word there, what-- "persistence". What does persistence look like? You know what I mean? What are we talking about there? Or, and, I'll try to just explore some of those little words. And, and of course, whenever you're just-- when you're just, exploring on a piece of paper with a pen in your hand. It comes, it al-- it always comes because, the roots are there. You're in the right place. And, the process, happens. But if people wanna see it as magic, I'm happy for that to have to be the case. Unless, and there's a big asterisk here, unless you see somebody at a conference and they're like, "Oh, I really like your stuff, and, oh, could you just draw something for me now?" And you're just like, no, because it's process, because I don't actually have a magic hat. And I can't just reach and pull something out of it. However, sometimes it- sometimes it really does appear like magic where-- and I think that's just, I think it's practice more than anything else where you're in the conversation, somebody will say something, you'll see a picture. And it feels like magic. But actually I've done this load before and I'm practiced at tuning into these little clues, I guess. [00:15:53] Alan Levine: Yeah, great. The Fabulous Remixer Machine --- [00:15:55] Alan Levine: There was so much to talk about, but we're here because, you won the Open Award for Excellence in the Open Infrastructure category for the "Fabulous" is it officially the "Fabulous Remixer Machine"? I keep calling it that and... [00:16:10] Bryan Mathers: It is, yeah, it absolutely officially is the "Fabulous Remixer Machine." Yeah. I, can't remember why that was added. but I think what I was trying to do a new logo for it years ago, and I just find myself, yeah, the " Fabulous Remixer Machine". Why not? [00:16:26] Alan Levine: Yeah. So where did the idea for that come from? What was the first remixer that you built? [00:16:32] Bryan Mathers: So it's a-- as with most of my stuff, it's a, long and curious road really. I remember coming across, SVGs. so that's, oh, what does that even stand for? [00:16:50] Alan Levine: Scalable Vector Graphic. Is that it? [00:16:52] Bryan Mathers: Graphics. That's right. Yeah, that's Scalable vectors, [00:16:55] Alan Levine: We can look up. [00:16:56] Bryan Mathers: But I'm realizing that it's a document, [00:16:59] Alan Levine: Okay. [00:17:00] Bryan Mathers: it's a-- so it's describing the image. So if there's a square, then there's a square that has these coordinates or it's this center point, or if it's a line or a path or whatever else. And-- and then realizing that obviously using JavaScript, you can-- you could change that document and therefore make-- allow a user to interact with it. And, I don't know if you've ever used CodePen, but it's quite a neat little in a way of trying something out. So I find myself experimenting with CodePen and getting to a certain point where it's just this is really interesting. And of course, like my degree is in software engineering and my background's in software. All this drawing and stuff is really a latent, a latent thing, a latent career I've discovered, really. So, it marries these two worlds that I'm in-- this sort of visual world and this sort of previous sort of web programming world, right? And, so I, I-- one thing led to another and I-- I discovered JavaScript frameworks, which weren't a thing whenever I was programming. But there's a JavaScript framework called View js. And that just saves you a lot of time, so you can build something that's reactive on a page without the user having to press reload, pretty easily. It was, yeah, pretty good. And so putting those things together, I found myself, oh, "I can re remix a thing." And listen it was completely curiosity driven. So it was just a massive rabbit hole. And then of course, what seems to happen with me is I'll explore something and then I'll see a use for it. So I was at this-- Greenpeace had organized this sort of get together of various different environmental NGOs. And-- And they invited someone who couldn't make it, and they recommended me. And so I ended up going along to this little network that was-- it was one of probably one of the most important things to have happened for Visual Thinkery. Great because it just opened me up to a whole bunch of new clients, really. And, but I found myself creating a-- we were trying to think about campaigns and sort of environmental campaigns. I found myself creating a little remixable business card. So that-- and it had lots of problems with it as in terms of a concept that might work. But the-- yeah, there was a-- there was an appreciation from the people that I was with that this was something very different and something that actually should be explored. And then, later on down the line, I think it was ALT that-- that said, like-- it was Maren. I was chatting to her about a remixable postcard. and so before I knew it, there was,-- I had made some sort of a half baked platform, and I-- yeah. But certainly back in those early days, yeah. As in I was learning to code again, really, because so much of the web had changed, in terms of how you went about building a site. So things like, Firebase the idea that you can have a-- a remote database that is storing JSON documents that you can then use APIs to manipulate. The fact that you're-- you don't have a server and a database on that server that's then totally bogged down is liberating. But of course I need to learn lots to be able to use this. So, I'm working on the remix er and on bits and pieces and-- but the postcard idea of people who weren't able to make the conference or people who were able to make a conference could send a postcard, that really worked. And the idea that you could see everybody else's postcard seemed to be the real magic, So it's one thing to remix something, but another thing to see the very-- and that's the thing, it's always tickled me. That whenever I approach something, I'll remix it within the world that I know. That's gonna be completely different to the world that you have experienced and that you have seen. So you'll come to a different conclusion. Some-- something different will be funny to you, that you'll want to remix. And I just love that, I love the idea that, you can have a-- an icebreaker in a,-- in a webinar, for example,. And people, if they're brave enough to have a go, will create various very different things. And you end up with this sort of very-- this landscape of, of, of, little creations, So, it's just evolved over time really. And, and I keep having-- I've got a list as long as your arm that I haven't implemented yet. I was looking back at some of them, some of the ones that I haven't-- there's so a few weird ones in there. But, but things like, I've always wanted to do a wanted poster. .Or in the UK we've got a, like , blue plaque that you put on the side of a building, sort of "Alan Levine lived here in 1832" or whatever it is. So like a remix of blue plaque, so that people could have fun with that. With, or things like, a gravestone, which is maybe slightly, morbid, but the idea that you could write your own gravestone or, or have fun with that, as always-- but yeah, I've got, a whole bunch of different ideas that I haven't quite got round to, or no one's asked me to, to do it yet, [00:22:48] Alan Levine: I'm just-- I, it, never struck me, but I'm realizing like all these are like analogs to things that people know, post --postcards, business cards, the slider switch, the dials. And just to describe, it's basically a template where, I can go in there and there's parameters. I, can change the text, I can change colors. I can generally move some things around. but there's an interesting kind of balance because there's a few controls, but not too many to make complex, right? But enough that people can make things that are pretty different and they can personalize it or make it meaningful in their own way. Does that kind of capture what you shoot for in these? [00:23:34] Bryan Mathers: That is perfect. Yes. there's nothing stopping you from making your own postcard, right? You could get a blank template off the web. You could stick it in a Word document and start typing on top of it if you want to, but it's gonna be pretty horrible pretty soon. Even just things like fonts and-- like half of design is spacing, in terms of a thing's relationships to other things. Yeah, the idea that you can create a template with certain creative constraints still works for someone who is very creative. Defining people as "creative" is problematic, but you know what I mean by that? Maybe, it's by bravery, someone who will jump in and start twiddling things, as well as people maybe who wouldn't see themselves as necessarily creative, but could actually create something that they were pleased with. You know what I mean? And that was them, so there's that agency, involved in the Remixer Machine as well. So yeah, you're, right, It's a sweet spot. If I add too many controls, it becomes problematic. So often the simpler the better, but if it's too simple, then there's not enough variation, So. yeah, there's a sweet spot there, definitely. [00:24:57] Alan Levine: But there, there's something different. there's plenty of places, you can go to Canva and get all kinds of templates. There's templates and generators. But to me, what one of the things I love about it, first of all is that, licensing, a Creative Commons licensing is built in and it is attributed. But when you remix something, you can see like the other remixes that started from the same thing. I think that's a huge asset to have, when you're trying to encourage people to make these things. [00:25:28] Bryan Mathers: Definitely. Yeah, that,-- that's, a, a key part of it really is. So if you think about the-- the scenario where it's an icebreaker, for example. So I,-- so one of the really early remixers was just a little periodic table element. So if you think about as it's just a little square with sort of an "H" for Hydrogen and then Hydrogen written underneath, and, and you could pose a question like, what is, what's your favorite type of music, or like that. And people put in "soul" or people would put in "R&B" or whatever they might put in, and they would be choosing a color for it. Of course, that's just slightly off the wall and whatever else-- but, oh, I've forgotten the question. What was the question? [00:26:13] Alan Levine: I forgot too. oh -- [00:26:15] Bryan Mathers: What was I telling you? [00:26:16] Alan Levine: That was a great question, but that's, but --Was ever one that like, you, you like, create it and built it and it's "Oh, this one's really good", and like maybe people didn't get it or was there, or, tell me what of your favorites is. [00:26:33] Bryan Mathers: No, so I'm still, wondering. in terms of why people-- people have people need a reason to remix. So where it's worked really well is, is in things like, yeah, Open Conference when I've created a little ID card and that,-- and people, there's a purpose there where people are going, "I'm here. I'm different from everyone else." And in some instances we've had maybe, sort of 250 different remixes, based around a conference, which is brilliant. So there's definitely a purpose required for people to step in. I remember what I was talking about before. Actually. We were talking about how being able to see other people's remixes is so important. And, there, I reckon there's a sort of a normal distribution of bravery when it comes to these sort of things. So I, and I'm judging you, Alan, as maybe someone who would jump straight in, and have a go. But not everybody's like you. Or like me for that matter, I'm probably a little bit behind you. I may be one of those early adopters, but not the total innovators, But as soon as people see what the game is, they're much more likely to jump in and, have a go, yeah or, a thought-- more than that, a thought occurs to them of what their version would be. So someone puts in, R&B or Craig David or something like that, and, someone's "oh, I hate that stuff" for me, it would be-- and there's an idea, an idea presents itself and all of a sudden they jump. So being able to see other people's remixes becomes really important. And there's almost a game that presents itself then because your, and it's personal, as in how-- how do I make this mine? But I, yeah, I'm still wondering at what makes people remix and whenever I look at the analytics, for some reason it's very popular in Poland. [00:28:36] Alan Levine: Yeah. [00:28:37] Bryan Mathers: Because it got into schools there. I don't know who, you know or how that happened, but it did. And in particularly the-- there's a trading card or what in the UK we would call Top Trumps, a little remixer of that game, a little trading card game. And, and it's really widely used there, which again, it tickles me no end because I've got no idea, you know why. But it's, it meets-- it obviously meets some sort of creative need, [00:29:07] Alan Levine: Yeah and I realize there's another element that it, really-- it, it hinges on the context or the way that people decide to use it . 'Cause I'm, thinking like, I, I love the little one that's just the switch, like we see the option switch on our computer. And on its own it's not gonna necessarily make you create something creative. You might be inspired by seeing something, but, someone sees that and says they frame a question around it where that's the thing that people use to-- it's-- that's what makes it a great tool to me, is that it's not necessarily baked into the remixer itself, what people should do with it. [00:29:49] Bryan Mathers: And the creative ability to have a gallery. So, essentially people supporting the remixer on Patreon can-- has have the ability to create galleries and that, that widens that out because they can control the name of the gallery, and choose a template, but then and then provide context. And that context-- context is really important, I think. So for example, I created a-- there was, a remixer, it was based on the postcard idea, but I created it for a university in Germany. And it was a Field Note. So the idea is that it had a sort of a map that you could manipulate in the background so that you, it would have, a point to a particular part of the world map. And then you'd be able to attach a photograph and basically add a couple of fields in terms of, this place, this is-- and, they were into, life sciences. They would be pointing out some plant in Chile or, whatever else and, they were also spread out. So there's different universities collaborating together. But my wife used the same remixer tool to explore the heritage of her students in her classroom. She's a primary school teacher. And obviously we live in a very multicultural area of London. But it was this idea where you could create a little a little pointer back to part of your heritage and you could see the diversity of heritage in-- in the classroom. So that worked really, well. same tool but completely different contexts. [00:31:43] Alan Levine: And, wow. I wanna go find that one 'cause I got some ideas brewing right now. But, I also wanna thank you because we've made great use of the Postcard. I've put it into play for the past couple OE Global conferences, and I just take a gallery and I change it up and make a new one. And, it's really effective. And I've seen that thing where afterwards or along the way you see ones come in. I have seen some of the Polish and other languages. And, I think that's wild because people come across it and they- they say "I don't know what this is for, but I wanna make a postcard". So I wanna thank you for that. Recognition and Awards --- [00:32:23] Alan Levine: I wanted to do- do some brainstorming because we have this like awards program and it's, a big process. Like people have to fill out these long forms and they have to write a bunch of stuff and, it's wonderful. We're not gonna change that. But I've heard and I keep thinking. Like what can we do as an ongoing basis to do-- not an award, but just to do a shout out, a recognition to say "Look, this librarian helped me, in this OER work". Or "I really wanna thank these people who gave me this idea for a project." And so I'm trying to think-- I was hoping like we could come up with something that might be a remixer that would be that thing that's, and I know "recognition" a lot is, I know the whole badging community. I'm not thinking of a badge, but I'm just thinking something that you could customize to acknowledge a person in a way that would be, I don't know, meaningful. And I don't know what the metaphor is for that, and so I just wanna plant that seed because I would like to find some way that I can say, look this month, we want you just to think about, take 10 minutes and think about someone who's been very important in helping you do the work that you do in open education. And just consider acknowledging that with like with a micro award or micro recognition or whatever the-- I don't know what the name is, but I haven't really landed on the thing. And I know it's-- I don't expect you to come up with it right now. [00:34:03] Bryan Mathers: No, actually this is, very timely. It's very timely because I'm doing a couple of workshops with-- with Doug Belshaw in and around recognition, badging and recognition, for Irish universities and for the N-TUTORR project, which you maybe will have heard of. And we were exploring, we were brainstorming, that sort of interpersonal recognition. And-- and I was just being a little-- I was doing what I do. I was being a little playful with it and thinking about, what are the interpersonal recognitions that exist? And I tried to capture as many of them as I could, but things like, the Hall of Fame. A star in the Hall of Fame is a sort of, it's quite a big one, right? Or a hat tip. You know what I mean? And hat tip made it into the sort of early days of Twitter and stuff like that, where it was like a, a h/t @cogdog for that brilliant resource that he shared or whatever else. But that sort of, I tip my head to you, or-- or flowers, It's just it's a different sort of appreciation, right? But, getting someone flowers is that sort of still interpersonal, but or just applause, or thumbs up or giving someone a pat on the head, which is maybe quite patronizing, Maybe, I don't know. But we as humans we have different ways of that sort of interpersonal recognition or whatever. But I wondered whether, something like the hat tip might be quite playful as a way of trying to capture, just a little, one of those. [00:35:48] Alan Levine: Yeah. [00:35:50] Bryan Mathers: And maybe in the Remixer Machine you could have different types of hats that people could choose. I don't know. Or-- [00:35:55] Alan Levine: Or put different logos on them or, or, yeah different style of hats. Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:00] Bryan Mathers: What would your hat be if you were hat tipping someone, Alan? [00:36:06] Alan Levine: I don't know, I, I started thinking first about 'cause often I just put a-- a baseball cap on with a sports team. I don't really follow anymore. But, but no, I'm thinking like a hat tip is more of like , I don't know my hat term, like a bowler or, something like a proper, like a fancy hat, like a top hat or yeah, or the kind, like the, what do they call the flat top caps that are common in Ireland.? They have the little button on top. [00:36:39] Bryan Mathers: Flat caps.. [00:36:41] Alan Levine: Yeah, but I think your idea that it could be like a variety of hat styles. It could be something super ornate and it could be something super basic. But yeah, that's, an interesting yeah, metaphor because everything else is like, a thank you note, or the star on the bulletin board or in school we used to get, if you did well, you'd get like a sticker of a turkey on your paper or something like that. But that's, badge-like, and what I like about the hat tip is it's it's a gesture. it's something that we would think of seeing, Yeah. [00:37:24] Bryan Mathers: Yeah, a gesture that you're, right. I hadn't used-- I hadn't thought about that word, but it is, yeah, it is a gesture. There's a little bit of respect in there-- [00:37:33] Alan Levine: Yeah. [00:37:34] Bryan Mathers: -- baked in and a little bit of possibly gratitude. I don't know. but it's quite loose, isn't it? There's quite a loose, and yet people know what you mean by it, so it is quite an interesting metaphor. But I was thinking, I wonder, are there other metaphors like that might be. [00:37:52] Alan Levine: Because you wanna-- you wanna be able to like declare who it's to and what it's for. Is it, maybe it's a telegram, like or Morse Code. No, Morse Code doesn't work. And, then I thought often of, common here, as an appreciation, my wife's a teacher and often, the kids or their parents will give her gift cards for the coffee shop. And those cards that have a certain amount of money on them, but, usually there's a note attached. This is for-- I acknowledge you for this. And what could you put on a card that's like emboss with a logo or something. I just, I thought it'd be fun and, I'm glad you've already been working on it with Doug's group, because, I have been following their focus on recognition. [00:38:49] Bryan Mathers: Yeah, like again, it's very random, that, yeah we're-- I'm thinking about that this week, in the same time as we're having a conversation with you, but that there lies the creative. That's where the creative melting pot, producers really, But, yeah, but when we stumbled across hat tip I was quite-- I just-- there's something about it that's, that sort of seems to be in the sweet spot somewhere where it's playful. But, it doesn't need to be a credential. It doesn't need to be a badge. It doesn't, It doesn't, and it could be just a little bit, 'cause humor is the most powerful weapon we have, I think. And humor used in the right way. and oh yeah, I often, I use the word "playful" instead maybe, but, people tend to warm to that a lot more. And just let me explore that. no, let me explore that just a little bit further. And so you want, to be able to capture who it's from and, who, who's being hat tipped, is that right? [00:39:52] Alan Levine: Yeah. And, what ,for which I know is of course the problem. I know, part of the creative limitation with the postcard is I can only get so many words in on the card. But that's the beauty of the creativity, is you gotta compress your message or use abbreviations, and I love that. [00:40:12] Bryan Mathers: Also SVGs and texts are problematic anyway, but --anyway. [00:40:17] Alan Levine: We don't know that. We don't see that. I was pleased to see, that you were nominated and that you got this award. I think it's really worthy. And, it, it that, that playfulness but meaningful aspect of it is almost what we need in-- in in this work. [00:40:39] Bryan Mathers: Yeah. listen, I was delighted. I was delighted. I was just delighted to be nominated. Nevermind, win the award. I. But yeah, I was really, flabbergasted really to win the award 'cause yeah, it's made me-- part of my-- part of the problem that I have is that I'm in a shed five days a week, and I often don't get to see how the things that I create are being used, whether that just be artwork. Obviously if somebody uses it in a campaign or commissions me to do something in a campaign, and then the campaign launches, I'm usually aware of that. But, a lot of the stuff I'm not aware of. In fact, I was at a wedding in Donegal just at the weekend. And somebody at the wedding came up to me and said, are you Bryan Mathers? Visual Thinkery? I couldn't believe it at all, but it was just like, oh, yeah. And he was working in the medical field and it was just like, so I've been using-- I've been following your stuff, but I've been using your stuff on assessment. And I realized that he was talking about stuff I'd done back in like 2016. And I think that's the power of Creative Commons as well, where if you stick a Creative Commons license on stuff and, make it available to people, it gets around. [00:41:59] Alan Levine: Yeah. [00:42:00] Bryan Mathers: But most of that I, never get to see. So it's really encouraging to me, personally, whenever, things do come back to me and this is really encouraging to me, so I'm very grateful. [00:42:12] Alan Levine: Thank you so much. it's always a-- it's more than a joy. It is just, it's energizing to talk to you, Bryan, and I'm just feel fortunate to, to know you. And I will come calling with things and we'll-- we will keep, rolling out our remixes. I hope. I really wanna encourage, okay-- I'll ask you do the pitch. Why should people. try the Fabulous Remixer Machine. Go. [00:42:34] Bryan Mathers: They should try the Fabulous Remixer machine because any presentation they've ever done just isn't as playful as they might want it to be. Am I right? So. you can step into the Remixer Machine. And even though you're still saying the same thing, you're gonna be able to say it in a different way, visually. And once you get in there, you'll start to go, "hold on a minute." Although we could-- I could use this for things where we're getting people together and they'll go in different directions. So I reckon as soon as you've stepped into that remixing world, see how it works, you'll, start seeing uses for it because, I don't know how people would use it in their worlds. And it doesn't matter. It's up to them to figure, out what, what use it has for them. [00:43:21] Alan Levine: Yeah. and, it definitely is fabulous. And, so are you, Bryan, and, hope to see you again soon. Conclusion and Final Thoughts --- [00:43:29] Alan Levine: And, thank you for being on the show, and hopefully I will get this edited before 2027 at the rate I'm going, but it'll be sooner. But, just to let everybody know listening that this is, OE Global Voices, the podcast that we do at Open Education Global. And we just, again, feature the people and ideas behind open education as you've heard in this episode. And you can find our. podcast at voices.oeglobal.org. And then we also have the opportunity to follow up in conversation with Bryan in the OEG Connect community. And then my little thing for all episodes is I try to find a somewhat of a relative related song from the Free Music Archive 'cause they're all Creative Commons licensed, and kind of run into some issues looking for a remix and machines. So I. I, guess I found this song that just kinda worked for me called "Tick Tock Instrumental Version" by Josh Woodward and I think it's off of a collection or an album that they call "The Beautiful Machine:. And you'll hear this when this episode is published, but that track is licensed Creative Commons, By Attribution, which means that we can make use of it. And the Creative Commons license really enables so much of what we do. Again, Bryan just, so wonderful to be in this space with you and to be in your shed. I wanna see it. I wanna see it someday, but it's a magical place. I know. [00:45:04] Bryan Mathers: it is. No, look, pleasure is all mine, Alan. Thank you for inviting me on and and it's really lovely to have a good blather with you.