OEGlobal Voices 88: Board Viewpoints with Robert Lawson === Intro Music and Opening Highlight Quote --- [00:00:06] Robert Lawson: I think that Two-Eyed Seeing is really the future direction of the college. If you look at new program development at NorQuest, there's a very strong Indigenous component to all the programs now. I'm working on a program on sustainability and there's a lot of Indigenous content. We have Indigenous relatives who are reviewing the material and, making sure it aligns with their protocols and their expectations. [00:00:49] So that is really becoming an important component of all the educational programming at NorQuest and, I guess by default, braiding as well, just piecing together different strands, ways in knowing of doing things. It's really important to the college and our mission of being as inclusive as we possibly can be. Welcome to OEG Voices Podcast with Robert Lawson --- [00:01:20] Alan Levine: Hello, and welcome to another episode in the OEG Voices Podcast, where we introduce you to one of OEGlobal's board members. It's June 19th, 2025 and welcome to the studio Robert Lawson from NorQuest College in Edmonton, which if I'm looking out my window, is about 740, 750 maybe kilometers northwest of me. [00:01:44] We got to know Robert very well in 2023 when NorQuest College hosted the very successful OEGlobal Conference in Edmonton, for which he was a program co-chair. Maybe we didn't wear him out because Robert ran for and was elected to the OEGlobal Board of Directors in 2024. [00:02:02] This podcast is really just an opportunity to learn more about Robert's perspectives and interest in open education and perhaps some insight into the role of a first year board member. Hi Robert, welcome to the studio, and how are you today? [00:02:15] Robert Lawson: I'm doing well and thank you so much for inviting me to do this podcast. It was great getting to know you during the OEGlobal Conference planning and it was a lot of fun. [00:02:28] Alan Levine: Then we were on the same plane flying to Brisbane in November for the 2024 conference. That was a lot of fun. [00:02:35] Robert Lawson: That's, right. I forgot about that. Yeah, absolutely. [00:02:39] Alan Levine: So the first thing is we call this our "Board Viewpoint" series. So I like to ask what, is your viewpoint, and which is of course, you'll tell me a map location where in the world you are. But also I like to ask, because this is a podcast , can you describe your surroundings, where you are sitting right now? [00:02:58] Robert Lawson: Yeah, so I'm sitting in the office of my house in Edmonton, and I look out the window. It's a very wet, gloomy day. And we've had a few of those with thunder showers, which is actually good because we've had a lot of dry weather and some forest fire smoke. So it's good that things are cooling off a bit. [00:03:21] Alan Levine: And, the same here. Getting rain in June, especially in Saskatchewan, is a pretty special thing for the garden and the trees and all. [00:03:29] Robert Lawson: Yes, absolutely. Robert Lawson's Journey in Open Education --- [00:03:30] Alan Levine: Where did you grow up as a child and what did you think of school as a kid? What kind of student were you? [00:03:37] Robert Lawson: I grew up in Kitchener, Waterloo, Ontario, so it's really central Southern Ontario. In terms of school, I always enjoyed it. I wasn't the best student, particularly in high school, but it was really later, I think, once I got to graduate school that I started to develop a real passion for learning. [00:04:03] That's continued since, and it's carried me pretty far. It's taken me to Open Education, which is one of my great passions. And it's something that really aligns with NorQuest, the institution that I'm at right now. [00:04:21] Alan Levine: And that's leading to the next question, maybe a little bit how you came to be at NorQuest. Like in the Hero's Journey, what was the call to action, what was the thing that opened your eyes to open education? [00:04:35] Robert Lawson: I have to credit Dawn Witherspoon, who was my manager at the time. She really ignited an interest in Open Education with me and we started with very small steps. So I joined NorQuest in 2016 and she wanted a way to replace the expensive image subscription services that we were using and suggested we start using open images in our courses. [00:05:04] And so we started doing that and it quickly took off. Lots of faculty started to adopt these open images. Then a couple years later, she asked me to write a segment for Reimagine Higher Education, which was the College Vision of Education by 2030. [00:05:26] She asked me to write something about Open Education and I started to think about where we could be as a college in terms of Open Education by 2030. We decided we want to get into textbook publishing. We want to become a Zero Textbook Cost institution or largely a Zero Textbook Cost institution. [00:05:48] And we decided we'll start publishing three textbooks a year, and then by 2030, we'll have at least 15. That was the minimum, hopefully we'll have a few more than that. We also wanted to become an international leader in OE, so we really had a big vision for where we wanted to be. [00:06:12] This was great. This sort of catalyzed my interest in Open Education or strengthened it. And we decided to apply to host OEGlobal as a part of this desire to become an international leader. In our original vision, we imagined hosting it in 2027, but we managed to do it in 2023, which was way ahead of schedule. [00:06:39] We're meeting our targets in terms of textbooks as well. And I think the thing that really has sustained my passion is the feedback from students who really appreciate it and are very happy with the textbooks that we're producing according to the instructors and authors who develop them and the faculty as well. [00:07:01] It's in an age where textbooks are becoming more and more costly. It's just something that really aligns with our inclusivity at NorQuest. And the other thing is that there's a real social justice mandate with Open Education that really appeals to me. [00:07:21] We have a very diverse college-- 60% of our learners are new Canadians. So we need textbooks that really align with their interests and their background. Developing our own is one way to do that. NorQuest College's Vision and Strategic Plan --- [00:07:36] Alan Levine: And for the audience who, like me until the conference, wasn't very familiar with NorQuest College. It's a rather unique institution. I did most of my career in the United States where community colleges are a pretty big field-- there are community colleges in Canada. [00:07:53] Can you describe that special focus and vision of NorQuest? Where does it fit in terms of the higher education sector between community college, polytechnicals and universities? That's a loaded question. [00:08:09] Robert Lawson: Yeah, it's it's an institution that really serves the needs of new Canadians, as I mentioned, people new to Canada. There's lots of programs in ESL, and then they can later ladder into professional programs in nursing or healthcare aid, business, childcare, et cetera. The name of our strategic plan is We are Who We include. [00:08:41] That captures what the college is really about. We want to be inclusive. We want to make education affordable and accessible, particularly to new Canadians or people who want to get into Post-secondary education, but never had the chance. So we have academic upgrading for people who want to improve their education and maybe ladder into a professional program. [00:09:07] So in that sense, we're quite unique. We do have a really wide range of great programs, as I mentioned-- everything from nursing to business, to machine learning. But we also provide those introductory skills or , the important tertiary skills that students need in order to get into post-secondary education. [00:09:34] So that makes us very unique as an institution. [00:09:38] Alan Levine: And is a good portion of your student body also working adults and people looking for skills as well? [00:09:46] Robert Lawson: Absolutely. I think the average age of our students is a little higher than it is for other post-secondary institutions. I think it's about 26. So we do have a lot of working students, adults who want to improve their lives. So we offer a variety of modalities for learning -- online learning, blended, face-to-face as well, at different times that are convenient for people. That's a really important component as well. I'm glad you mentioned that. Reflections on Hosting OEGlobal Conference --- [00:10:21] Alan Levine: And of course I didn't know that you had originally intended to host the conference in 2027. can you say anything about looking back in hindsight now, I'm sure you're gonna be very proud of it, as you should be, any kind of thing that kind of emerged as a post experience of what came out of being the host for the conference? [00:10:45] Robert Lawson: One of the greatest things that came out of it was the co-governance model between what was then curriculum development and the Indigenous house of learning and collaborating together on the theme of sustainability and Indigenous ways of knowing, I think this collaboration, including the motif of braiding, which resonated with a lot of people at the conference. [00:11:14] I think that collaboration and cooperation really helped the college to move ahead in terms of decolonization. I think for the people attending the conference, it's was something really new. It really opened their eyes to what is possible in terms of collaboration and cooperation and to Indigenous ways of knowing and Indigenous culture, which I think was new for a lot of people attending the conference and that spirit of collaboration and cooperation. I think people felt that, and I think that's why a lot of people felt, when they were writing their feedback on the conference, a lot of people said they felt really welcomed and they felt included. [00:12:10] That might be because we made a conscious effort to really be inclusive in the way we designed the programming for the conference. That's something I still hear about from people, which is really wonderful to hear, that people did feel included and felt that sense of belonging. [00:12:31] That's something that I'm very proud of with respect to that conference. [00:12:35] Alan Levine: And how was it to go to a conference the next year, you didn't have to organize? [00:12:39] Robert Lawson: That was awesome. Yeah, that was really great to go to Brisbane and just to relax and enjoy the sessions. There were some wonderful presentations there, wonderful keynotes, et cetera. [00:12:55] Alan Levine: And, I, can say pretty safely that the theme and that vision of inclusivity at Edmonton, carried into shaping the way the folks in Brisbane carried out their conference. [00:13:08] Robert Lawson: Yeah, I, hope so. I did attend some really wonderful. presentations by Australian academics and teachers and was really amazed at what they're doing in terms of decolonization and including Aboriginal perspectives and ways of knowing, from the very beginning in the design of their books and programs. [00:13:40] I think they're doing incredible work there. It's something I want to learn a lot more about, so they've really inspired me with some of the work that they're doing there. Current Projects and Future Directions --- [00:13:50] Alan Levine: What's keeping you busy now? What are some exciting projects on your plate in your role and in Open Education at NorQuest? [00:13:59] Robert Lawson: So currently I'm working on a project called Unfolding Histories. This is a series of interviews with ten first generation Canadian immigrants. This was really inspired by History in the Making at Montgomery College, a project with their students talking about the opportunities and challenges that they faced in coming to the United States. [00:14:25] We decided this would be great for NorQuest because so many of our students and faculty are first generation immigrants to Canada. We wanted to find out about their settlement experiences in Canada. This is actually funded by a City of Edmonton anti-racism grant. And we're going to upload the interviews to the Open Education Alberta catalog and then people can see these interviews and see what the experiences of people have been. [00:14:55] It's just fascinating to hear people talk about their challenges in coming to Canada. They're really varied and the experiences that they've had, the countries that they're coming from, and, it's really insightful. [00:15:14] Of course, a common theme in Edmonton seems to be the weather. We've had a few people that have arrived in the middle of winter, to minus 15 or 20 degrees Celsius. It can be quite a shock. There's also a lot of very positive experiences. I'm hoping to put this all together by November. To me that's one of the most exciting projects that I'm working on because, I get , to work face-to-face with NorQuesters who are staff, faculty, students at NorQuest and just, yeah, talk to them about their experiences. [00:15:52] It's really rewarding. [00:15:54] Alan Levine: And I hope you let us know when it's out and if we can arm twist you maybe into doing perhaps something for the OEGlobal community to share that work. [00:16:04] Robert Lawson: Yes, absolutely. I would love to. [00:16:07] Alan Levine: You did mention, of course, one of my favorite things, was , the vision of Two-Eyed Seeing and braiding at the conference. I understand there was some continued follow up with Dawn and Darrion Letendre on that. Unfortunately, I was in another room during your session in Brisbane, Where has that concept, played out and how do we encourage more people to think and operate in that braiding mindset? [00:16:35] Robert Lawson: I think Darrion is still doing some wonderful work in this regard, and I believe he's going to be involved in a presentation at OpenEd, possibly in collaboration with MIT, I think, or some people from MIT. He might be talking a little bit more about that Two-Eyed Seeing. We did publish a blog post together about cooperation and collaboration in open education where we touched on some of these issues. [00:17:07] I think that Two-Eyed Seeing is really the future direction of the college. If you look at new program development at NorQuest, there's a very strong Indigenous component to all the programs now. I'm working on a program on sustainability and there's a lot of Indigenous content. We have Indigenous relatives who are reviewing the material and, making sure it aligns with their protocols and their expectations. [00:17:51] So that is really becoming an important component of all the educational programming at NorQuest and, I guess by default, braiding as well, just piecing together different strands, ways in knowing of doing things. It's really important to the college and our mission of being as inclusive as we possibly can be. Challenges and Opportunities in Open Education --- [00:18:19] Alan Levine: So when you're there in Edmonton and you're doing your scan of the globe of the world, in terms of Open education, from your perspective, what issues are you currently seeing as most important or problematic, for Open Education? [00:18:39] Robert Lawson: The world is pretty chaotic right now. There's a lot of problems, of course, with war, poverty, potential pandemics, that kind of thing. It looks very unstable. And I'm really concerned about the fulfillment of the United Nation SDGs that we highlighted at OEGlobal 2023. How can Open Education help to resolve some of these problems? [00:19:15] I still remain optimistic in the sense that I think that Open Education can help to support a lot of the SDGs, particularly around the one of the most important of these, which is number four, Access to High Quality Education. The more we invest in Open Education, the more we can help to fulfill this goal and by default fulfill some of the other goals as well around reducing poverty, addressing climate change, that kind of thing. [00:19:48] And, just looking back to OEGlobal 2023 I remember Cable Green telling us in his keynote, a lot of the knowledge that we need to address these problems is not available. It's currently locked down. It's behind a paywall. And if we can find a way to open up this knowledge and make it accessible, we can address a lot of these important problems around the globe, and hopefully start to meet some of the targets for the UN SDGs. [00:20:27] Something that I've become interested in lately is that I find a little problematic is the widespread use of Artificial Intelligence. And I wonder if this really aligns with the principles of Open Education because-- AI is wonderful. It's, you can't help yourself, but use it. It's there. It's amazing. It's so fast, can do wonderful things. [00:20:54] But, at the same time, I don't think people pay a lot of attention to the consequences in terms of the environment. And, in the preamble to the UNESCO Recommendation on OER, they encourage educational institution and programs to be adequately and equitably resourced with safe environmentally friendly and easily accessible facilities. [00:21:24] But, AI is not environmentally friendly. How do we address this problem as Open Educators? There's a lot of talk about using AI to develop open textbooks. That's great. But what about the social justice component of Open Education, concern for the SDGs and concern for climate change and environmental damage? [00:21:51] How does that align with the use of AI? [00:21:54] So I think we really need to be mindful of that and I don't think there's a lot that we can do about the proliferation of AI, but perhaps we can start to educate people on how to use it most efficiently and maybe develop toolkits for people on the potential consequences of these data stations that use enormous amounts of power and water for cooling, et cetera. [00:22:28] Yeah, that's something that concerns me. [00:22:31] Alan Levine: Oh, definitely the big ones. Joining the OEGlobal Board --- [00:22:32] Alan Levine: So what was it that made you wanna be on the board of OEGlobal and what's it like so far? [00:22:40] Robert Lawson: So far it's been wonderful. I really cherish the opportunity to work with people from around the globe. It really is global, and to work with all of you as well at, OEGlobal. I really enjoyed the partnership that we had for the conference and that relationship that we had with each other kind of inspired me to go forward and become a member of the board. [00:23:12] I thought OEGlobal was doing great work in terms of the conference, in terms of building connections around the world. And that's something that I wanted to be a part of. One of the things that I thought was really great about OEGlobal 2023 and being involved in that was the chance to build partnerships and connections with people. I think OEGlobal is a great organization for doing that. [00:23:44] As I was planning the conference, I started to notice that it was challenging for some people to come to the conference. Some people had some financial challenges and I wondered if as a member of the board, if I could maybe find some solutions , to help address some of those challenges and make the conference accessible to people who are having these financial challenges-- whether it's developing grants or just finding ways to make it truly global. [00:24:28] Alan Levine: Excellent. And we use the word "Community" all the time, and it's part of what my job title is, but we've got this complex community. There's this really broad community of open education. There's people who come in and out of OEGlobal, and then there's members. So what's, what can we do as like this sometimes amorphous community, to catalyze efforts towards addressing some of the things that you're talking about. Especially, given that people are crunched by time, more stressed, have the concerns about the environment. But what are some of the things that we can do maybe individually or collectively as a network of open educators? [00:25:12] Robert Lawson: That's a really great question. And I think that in Canada anyways, there's budget issues at a lot of post-secondary institutions. People may not have the resources to help resolve some of these problems. [00:25:32] I think that OEGlobal is doing great work in terms of building connections around the world and, just the fact that they gave us the opportunity as a community college to host OEGlobal was great. It's like they're expanding the number of institutions and nature of the institutions that they're working with. I think having consistent conference themes that highlight some of these issues can help build the momentum or keep the momentum going to help resolve some of these problems- maybe addressing the SDGs or Artificial Intelligence, could become regular conference features. [00:26:28] Maybe we could have webinars about these topics to educate people more about the environmental impact of AI or the importance of fulfilling the SDGs. And maybe building more connections and partnerships with organizations that work in these fields that work to address climate change problems or some of the environmental problems associated with AI [00:26:59] Those are some things I could think of as ways to address these issues. Encouraging Nominations for Open Education Awards --- [00:27:05] Alan Levine: And, right now, as you likely know, will be the thing where I come up and put my arm around your shoulder and convince you-- we've opened the nominations for the Open Education Awards for Excellence. And we're really looking for ways to expand the range and reach of the nominations. [00:27:28] I think people feel like, "Oh, my work is not really that important, it's not as great as what they do at NorQuest" or whatever. And people decide to nominate themselves because they think they will win. We're trying to shift that to say the importance of nomination is making your work and other people's work more visible. [00:27:48] So can you give me something I can use as a quotable statement, as, like an appeal as to why people should consider, nominating themselves or someone else for an award this year? [00:28:01] Robert Lawson: I need to open up AI and-- [00:28:04] Alan Levine: You don't need AI! You got Robert I! [00:28:07] Robert Lawson: Yeah. yeah [laughter]. [00:28:11] Something along the lines of take a chance or don't worry about it, just do it. Maybe that's Nike slogan. I dunno. [00:28:23] Alan Levine: Yeah. [00:28:24] Robert Lawson: Try to find something original that just tells people not to be concerned about what others are doing, like just, go ahead and try, make an effort. You never know, it could inspire people somewhere else. [00:28:46] I know from some of the textbooks that we've published in settlement studies, or medical office terminology -- but it's always interesting to see the reaction of people in other provinces who go, "wow, this is great! We can really use this, there's not a Settlement Textbook in Canada." This is beautiful. This is like the first of its kind, we need to adopt this. [00:29:19] The authors who've created some of these textbooks are pretty shocked when they see the analytics, see how many people have adopted them and where they've adopted them. [00:29:32] Put your stuff out there for people to see, be open [00:29:37] Alan Levine: !And I'm counting you, Robert, and I'll be hoping that you're getting the word out to your colleagues and people at NorQuest. [00:29:46] I can say the work that Darrion Letendre is definitely groundbreaking. [00:29:52] Robert Lawson: Yes, it is. [00:29:53] Alan Levine: The, NorQuest strategic plan that incorporates such a degree of inclusivity and maybe some of those non- mainstream programs that are making some headway with open education, would be a great fodder for a nomination. [00:30:13] See what I'm doing here? [00:30:14] Robert Lawson: Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah. You've inspired me. I'm gonna ask Darrion about this possibility. [00:30:20] Alan Levine: And, another thing is, if people are willing to do it, is it's really quite fulfilling to nominate someone else because they will get it as a surprise. It's not something that they had to put themselves on the block for. That's what we're trying to put out there as a message. Personal Insights and Closing Remarks --- [00:30:40] Alan Levine: What's something rewarding that you do away from NorQuest and the open education stuff? What what does renew and recharge robert? [00:30:49] Robert Lawson: Actually my, 4-year-old son, Brian, whom you met [00:30:55] Alan Levine: He's four. [00:30:56] Robert Lawson: at OEGlobal. he's four now. [00:30:58] Alan Levine: Oh my gosh. [00:30:58] Robert Lawson: Believe that. So he really is the primary focus outside of work and does really recharge my batteries at the end of the day and keeps me on my toes, keeps me busy. It's always thrilling watching him discover something new. [00:31:20] Yeah, I would say that's probably the most rewarding thing outside of work. [00:31:26] Alan Levine: Oh, very good to hear that. [00:31:29] Thank you so much again, Robert, for taking time today and it's always a joy . I learned a bunch of things that I know and I'm looking forward to, hearing your documentary storytelling project coming out in November. [00:31:42] Robert Lawson: Yeah, I, look forward to it too. And, I'll let you know more about it and, would love to do a feature on it or whatever. [00:31:52] Alan Levine: We love to showcase it. [00:31:53] Thank you Robert and thank you listeners out there for being here for this episode of OEGlobal Voices, the podcast that we do here at Open Education Global. I'm putting on my announcer voice. But for each episode, I like to pick a different track from the Free Music Archive 'cause it's all Creative Commons licensed music by independent musicians. [00:32:15] I read that Robert really has a love of travel. I selected a track called "Travel" by an artist named Cambo and it's licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution License. Robert will be there in anticipation to hear that song when I get to edit this. And you'll find this when published at our site, voices.oeglobal.org. [00:32:36] And we also invite people to join us in follow up conversations in our OEG Connect community space or wherever you interact with us in social media. If you're listening right now and, you wanna be on the show or you think we should invite someone else, we're looking for all kinds of voices from around the world, anybody interested in talking about, open education. The joys, the challenges, the things that, that really infuse us with energy. Just let us know, by email or just you can find us. [00:33:09] And again, it's been great talking with Robert and I hope you enjoy a great, summer over there in Edmonton. [00:33:16] Robert Lawson: Yeah, I hope you do too, next door, and it's always a pleasure talking to you as well.