OEGlobal Voices 89: OEAwardee María Luisa Zorrilla === Intro Music and Highlight Quote --- [00:00:04] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: And then you have another layer and another layer. So nowadays, they talk about artificial intelligence literacy. And I understand it as a new layer of digital literacy, of digital competencies. Because, you have to have the traditional digital literacy before being able to really interact in a critical, ethical, responsible, creative way with artificial intelligence. Podcast Episode Introduction --- [00:00:38] Alan Levine: It's Monday, July 25th, 2025, here in the podcast studio. We're recording a new episode for OEGlobal Voices. It's the podcast we produce here at Open Education Global, and every one of these we try to share with you conversation style, people, practices, and ideas from open educators around the world. [00:00:58] And I'm most excited today to be taking it to central Mexico and especially the state of Morelos. To bring you a conversation with María Luisa Zorrilla, a researcher, educator and leader of a unit responsible for many open courses provided by the Autonomous University of the State of Morelos. And Maria Luisa was recognized last year with an Open Education Award for Excellence as an educator. [00:01:23] I like to make an excuse that we waited almost a year to bring her into the studio, but the timing is appropriate because right now nominations are open through the end of July, which is actually a few more days, for the 2025 awards. And we just like to maybe help people feel inspired by Maria's accomplishments in her work and to see the announcements that will come for the next round of awards coming in October. [00:01:49] Oh, I didn't even say who I am, but I'm your humble host, editor, and frequent making mistakes live on the air, alan Levine, and I'm most honored now to be speaking now with Maria Luisa. [00:02:00] And so let's get to our conversation. Conversation with María Luisa Zorrilla --- [00:02:05] Alan Levine: So first of all, Buen dia,. Hello. Good morning. I'm gonna ask you to introduce yourself. And you'll respond with maybe a map location where you are in the world, which we want to know. But also let us know your physical surroundings. I can see you, but the podcast audience will only hear your voice. [00:02:22] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Okay. Hello, I'm Maria Luisa Zorilla. I'm a faculty member and general director of Multimodal Education at the Autonomous University of the State of Morelos in Mexico. Right now I'm in Cuernavaca, the capital of Morelos in Mexico, also known as the city of Eternal Spring. We are in the middle of summer break and I'm at home, really happy to be connecting with you and everyone listening to OEG Voices. [00:02:51] Alan Levine: Oh, thank you so much. I did look at the map to understand where Morelos is. You're near very big mountains, is that correct, across Central Mexico. Are they nearby? [00:03:00] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Yes. All Mexico is crossed by mountains and we are very near Mexico City, the capital of Mexico. It takes about 45 minutes to drive to Mexico City. So we are really near the capital and yes, we have to cross a mountain to go to the city. That's correct. [00:03:20] Alan Levine: I only remember, see I'm going off track because I studied Geology as a graduate student. And one of my colleagues studied what Popocatépetl. is that nearby? [00:03:32] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Yes, We have two big volcanoes. Both of them are near Mexico City, near Puebla. That's another state. Morelos is very near Popocatépetl and when the volcano is active, we have a lot of ashes here in Cuernavaca. [00:03:50] Alan Levine: Yeah. And it's a huge mountain, right? [00:03:52] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Yes. Yes. It's a volcano. Yes. Huge. [00:03:55] Alan Levine: Okay, so we're not here to talk about volcanoes. María Luisa's Background and Career Path --- [00:03:58] Alan Levine: Maria Luisa, where on the globe did you live as a child? And, what did you think of school as a child? [00:04:05] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: I grew up in Mexico City, which is Mexico's capital and one of the biggest cities in Latin America. I always loved school. I was the kind of student who did well in most subjects because I had a good memory and I really enjoyed learning. [00:04:22] Alan Levine: Oh, fantastic. And, as much as you can, what was your path that led you to your role right now at UAEM? [00:04:33] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: I'm not very young, so it's a long story. I'll try to make it short. But, I studied communication studies. And in my first years of professional life were in the entrepreneurial organizations, chambers and associations that represented industry and commerce. [00:04:54] I was in public relations and organizational communication, that kind of work. At the end, more or less of the past century, I decided to make a change of life, re-engineer, and then I did a master degree in communication as well at the Autonomous University of Mexico, the UNAM, it's, the National Autonomous University of Mexico, which is the most important university in my country. [00:05:23] I did my Masters degree there in Mexico City. And I first came across open licensing when I was doing my degree there in communication in the early 2000s. One of my professors asked us to read a book called Code and Other Laws Cyberspace, maybe you know it, by Lawrence Lessig. He's the founder of Creative Commons. [00:05:45] That book completely changed the way I thought about the internet and about content in internet. Now understanding it was something that could be open but still recognize authorship and follow certain rules. Later on, I decided to do a PhD and I had the fortune to get a scholarship to go to England. [00:06:06] I went to a small city called Norwich. It's about three hours from London, more or less. And while writing my thesis, I was studying about education media convergence in the UK. I was mainly focused on tv and web resources. And then I proposed a model for producing and sharing educational content, which I call the Quilting Bee, because my idea was that creating knowledge should be a collaborative process. [00:06:37] Around that time, I also discovered the concept and the spirit of Open Educational Resources from the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation. Which really resonated with the way I was already thinking. A few years later, around 2010, I returned to Mexico and I started to collaborate at the Autonomous University of the State of Morelos. [00:06:58] They wanted to start a distance education project. So I launched the UAEM project at that time. This is a public university. From the very beginning I was convinced that all the educational resources we created for distance and for hybrid learning should be open. So we adopted Creative Commons licenses for everything we produced. [00:07:22] Now we are celebrating 15 years of doing just that. As for the MOOCs, when they started becoming a trend around, I remember about, 2012 or 2013, more or less. We were curious. Since I lead the area in charge of creating online learning content, it felt natural for us to experiment. [00:07:42] That's how we launched our very first MOOC in 2016, Internet Searching for Higher Education Students. Now it's been running for 10 years. That's the way I started in this open education world. [00:07:56] Alan Levine: Oh, I love it. It's a beautiful story. Open Education and MOOCs at UAEM --- [00:08:05] Alan Levine: I wanna ask so many questions, but can we talk about the Autonomous university State of Morelos? Like many people, when I hear Autonomous university, I know of the national one, but it's a state level public university, correct. [00:08:13] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Yes, that's correct. [00:08:14] Alan Levine: And so you serve students across a large geographic area. How many? Are there multiple campuses? Who are your typical students if, you can describe? [00:08:25] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Okay. The university serves three levels of education. One is like the upper part of high school, we call it preparatoria. It's the level before going to college, before going to the university. So we have  preparatoria in different parts of the state of Morelos. [00:08:47] Then we have undergrad studies. We have about 90 programs in different areas. And then we have postgraduate programs. We have more than 40 postgraduate programs. Our total studentship, the number of students we serve, are more than 40,000 in all the state of Morelos. [00:09:11] And we have, various campus. The main one is in Cuernavaca where I live. It's called Chamilpa or Campus because it's in a song called Chamilpa. We have other two areas here in Cuernavaca and then other campuses around the state of Morelos. We have about 12 campuses in different locations. And yes, in Mexico in most states, we have these kind of universities, the public state universities that are focused to a region, to a geographical area. We are public because of most of our financing comes from public funds. [00:09:49] Alan Levine: And so then it's accessible to the citizens of Morelos as a form of education. [00:09:57] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: It's free. The education we offer, it's free. They only pay a very small amount for entering the university every year, a fee for administrative services, but it's really a small fee. To give you an idea, let me make the conversion in dollars. It would be like $50 a year. [00:10:16] Alan Levine: Oh my. Yeah. [00:10:17] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Thats what they for going to the university. So yes, it's for all people and it's very important, especially for education to people from marginalized backgrounds. [00:10:29] Alan Levine: Absolutely. It says a lot about the meaning of education in that part of the world. [00:10:33] And so with the open courses and the MOOCs, do you also reach beyond the boundaries of Morelos? [00:10:42] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Yes, we started offering our open courses in a platform that is administered by the Ministry of Education here, it's called the Secretaría de Educación Pública. That ministry created this MOOC platform which was called MéxicoX. This platform was created 10 years ago. In fact this year they rebranding the platform. [00:11:07] Now we will be @prende.mx, which is learn dot mx. We started using that platform because we wanted to have more visibility at national level and also internationally. That's why in our university, the courses we offer for our students, we use Moodle, which is a very common LMS, but for MOOCs we decided to use this external platform which was especially created for MOOCs. [00:11:38] And at first we checked other platforms like Coursera, edX, FutureLearn- these kind of platforms. But many of them have this kind of business model, but we wanted to offer something that was really free for everyone, really open. So that's why we chose MéxicoX because it was really the model of being really open, really free for everyone. [00:12:06] Alan Levine: Fantastic. Very commonly, you may be aware, in North America when you talk about MOOCs, some people just think of that 2012 time period, and they think like they're not important anymore. But in so many parts of the world, MOOCs are still very vital and, very powerful as you're demonstrating. [00:12:26] I've heard also in parts of Asia and India that these are still really important in the education system. Does that strike you odd that people have forgotten about what MOOCs can do? [00:12:39] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Not really because, as I told you, I'm also a researcher and I do a lot of reading and searching. I'm familiar with the trends in other parts, especially North America, Europe, which are referenced. But we are not resisting that influence because of colonialism and that kind of thing. We are de-colonizing our research, but that's another theme. [00:13:04] Yes, you are right. They might be not very important in certain parts because they're not something trendy. But they are very relevant in Mexico because now there is a big boom about microcredentials. It's a very important thing for the Mexican government. They have a thing they call the Plan México. And they want to give a special impulse to certain programs, to certain careers. [00:13:38] And they are discovering that MOOCs can be remedial or complement some special paths. They have found that engineers, for example, lack soft skills. They are not very good at certain soft skills. and they think, "Okay, we can solve that with micro credentials for soft skills." And that will be through MOOCs. [00:14:01] We have also found that other areas of transferable skills, like digital skills, which is is the area where we work on, are very important. They are not in curriculum in many programs. So the MOOCs remediate this because you can add digital skills to the students education without having to change your curriculum. So I think that they are becoming relevant, especially for these micro-credentials, complementing the curricular education. [00:14:36] Alan Levine: So possibly micro-credentials might gain acceptance as a recognized form of achievement in education? Is that where Mexico's aiming towards? [00:14:47] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Yes. I think that not only Mexico and most of the world. In fact, the World Economic Forum says that we are changing from these this model of credentials, the university credentials, to a model of skills, hiring people based on their skills. The way that people are showing or proving the skills they have through microcredentials. [00:15:11] So I think that yes, the model is changing, and microcredentials, they're now important and they're coming to be more important because that's a way of building as a person your own curriculum, your own path. [00:15:26] It's very related to this idea of learning all your life. So you keep on learning and you keep on, building on that profile, adding these credentials, configuring and reconfiguring who you are professionally. Digital Culture and Technology in Education --- [00:15:44] Alan Levine: Noticed in reading more about your work and interest, a lot of your focus has been on the issues and courses in digital culture. How'd that come to be of importance and where's your emphasis now with the state of technology in 2025? What does digital culture mean? [00:16:05] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: I started being interested in digital culture when I did my masters degree, as I told you, it was in Communication. Since I was working with industry, I was working with the fishing industry. I was in the national chamber of the fishing industry. I did all the work related to public relations and press relations in the fishing industry. [00:16:26] At the time we were living with this tuna embargo we have for many years in Mexico, that was imposed by the United States because it was supposed that our industry killed a lot of dolphins. And that was a big thing for the national chamber. [00:16:46] I started to study what was behind this embargo and what was the force behind the embargo and how citizenship pushed or imposed this embargo. And then I started to understand all these thing about net activism. [00:17:03] When I did my master degree I studied virtual communities. At the time it was very new. There was an author, Howard Rheingold, who wrote a book about virtual communities. He was my guru when I was doing my master degree thesis. There's where I started being interested in technologies and digital culture. [00:17:30] Digital culture thinking it of different ways, just how people are in the net, how they exist in the net, but also how they act, how they do things, but also with which capabilities, with which competencies. So that's the way I understand digital culture. [00:17:51] And later on I went to work at the National Ministry of Education in Mexico. I helped to do a webpage for the area of educational television. Educational television in Mexico is very important because we have a model that's called Telesecundaria. It's the first years of high school. [00:18:13] When you finish primary education, you do three years of secondary. And so we have Telesecundaria through television. In many places where they don't have the physical school, children have Telesecundaria. So I worked in the area that managed Telesecundaria and we had a web webpage. We were interested in seeing how television and internet were converging. [00:18:38] That's when I decided to do my PhD. I went to England because the most important model of convergence between television, educational television and internet was BBC Schools. My focus my research was BBC Schools and how they were converging these two educational contents, television, also radio and the internet. [00:19:01] And when I came back to Mexico, since I had years working around technology and educational technology, that's why they invited me to this university, to Autonomous University to launch their first model of distance education and using technology in education. [00:19:18] Alan Levine: I have so many more questions. I love that you worked in an area with your technology and communication skills in fishing. You accumulate this extra knowledge about a subject that maybe you didn't intend to. [00:19:31] Just listening to that, what you described seeing much of the history of technology in the last 10 or 15 years, how does it feel right now? I love that you mentioned Howard Reingold. He's been a big influence for me. I, even stayed at his house once. [00:19:47] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Wow. [00:19:48] Alan Levine: He's a dear human. He's a wonderful human being, but so visionary, from the very start. [00:19:55] Thinking about those ideas now where, so many things, like for me, it's just changed so much in the last five or ten years from what we were thinking about in virtual communities and open courses. And now, we will talk about artificial intelligence probably and social media and, all of that has a big connection to digital culture. [00:20:18] And digital culture is always changing, right? [00:20:22] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Yeah you are correct. Digital culture is made of several levels, I think, because each level is according to certain technologies. So when you learn to use certain technologies and interact with them, then comes a new technology and you can use the knowledge you had before, but you have to build new knowledge. [00:20:42] And then you have another layer and another layer. So nowadays , they talk about, for example, artificial intelligence literacy. And I understand it as a new layer of digital literacy, of digital competencies. Because, you have to have the traditional digital literacy before being able to really interact in a critical, ethical, responsible, creative way with artificial intelligence. [00:21:15] Yes, I think the same as you, that digital culture is very dynamic. That's why I have been interested in studying it, but also in doing something around digital culture. That's how we started in our university, the digital culture program, to build capabilities, to build competencies. [00:21:36] We also found that many of the content we found in the web were in English. But not all people in Mexico speak English, so we wanted to offer digital culture in Spanish. So that's why we started creating the Digital Culture MOOCs, that we have been created for the past 10 years. [00:21:57] We have been creating and updating them because what we found is that producing MOOCs on digital culture is a work that never ends because every year things change. We have to be updating them every year so that they keep relevant in the context we are working. Artificial Intelligence in Education --- [00:22:19] Alan Levine: How would you characterize the way educators that you work with and perhaps students are reacting or thinking about this wave of artificial intelligence? Is it coming into people's work? Are they using it personally? What are you focusing on as a researcher? [00:22:41] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Okay. it's complicated because it's an early stage of appropriation of this technology. But what I've seen, yes, most students are already using it without problem. They're using it, but most of them are maybe a little lost. They don't know what is correct, what is not correct, if they are allowed to use it, if it's cheating to use it. [00:23:06] They use it and they don't know if they can disclose they're using it or how much is acceptable to say they are using. So yes, they're using it, but with a lot of, I think, sometimes doubts. Or maybe, fear of doing something wrong or not allowed. [00:23:28] That's why in our university we are working in some guidelines for all the communities, students, teachers, everyone, to establish certain rules for everyone. What is allowed? What is not allowed? And how do you make visible you are using these tools, how are you using them and what percentage of the work you are presenting is done by this technology. [00:23:53] And also, a very important thing is making student conscious of what they might lose in their education, in their own building as persons if they use that a lot? For example, when I write in English, sometimes I have doubts how to say something, but I make myself write in English first with my brain. And then I ask for example, ChatGPT please proofread this. And so I check what was changed and what was corrected. But then I still I keep my writing because if I write it in Spanish and say "Please translate to English", that's easier. I don't have to think in English. But then I will lose my capability of writing in English, I don't want to lose that. [00:24:38] I make myself do it because I don't want to lose it. That's what I'm trying to tell the students that, please don't go to de-skilling. No, please upskill or re-skill, but that de-skill, no. So that's with students. [00:24:55] But with teachers, we have different generations and different attitudes. Some teachers are adopting these, making experiments, using it for creating exams and their programs, their, planning and many things. [00:25:13] But there are other teachers that are afraid of it and they say, "I will ban it in my classroom. It's prohibited to use it. I will make my students write with a pen or a pencil." [00:25:25] And some of them say, I want a course, I want training to learn to use it. In fact, we're offering a course this August for teachers. But I keep on telling, okay, we can offer courses, but, you cannot depend all time of courses because when we have the course, maybe the technology already evolved. So you have to be a lifelong learner. You have to learn all the time. You have to learn to learn. And many teachers, I think they haven't learned to learn. They need the course. They want the course. And it's a difficult moment. Students are using it and teachers are waiting for the course. [00:26:07] That's the way I see it and I'm interested mostly into things in my research. One is artificial intelligence literacy, how it is visualized from different authors, from different points of view. What is really important in these literacies? That is the one thing I'm interested now. [00:26:26] And the other thing is the regulatory frames that are now being created, because that is something we are working on in our university. We have checked many regulatory frames from other universities in Mexico and in the world and from countries. So we are interested in seeing how this is being regulated. [00:26:48] And also in these literacies, we are interested in how we see it from the global south, because it is a global north technology. It's again, the colonialism, this domination. So how can we resist that also? No. And not just appropriate it, use it and not thinking where it comes from and who's behind it, who's making business with this? No. [00:27:18] Alan Levine: And not even the same, but I feel colonialized 'cause I didn't ask for this. It wasn't anything that I sought for, but now we have to deal with it. María Luisa's Teaching and Research Interests --- [00:27:27] Alan Levine: Also, you teach as well. What courses do you teach currently? [00:27:31] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: I teach at different levels. I teach undergrad students. We have an undergrad degree on education mediated by technologies. That's a degree. So I have a course that's called Storytelling and Gamification in Education. [00:27:49] Alan Levine: I love those topics. [00:27:51] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Yes, that's a course I offer for undergrad students. My post-grad students are into programs. One is a master degree in Research in Education, and the other is a PhD in Education. We change the seminars we offer each year because we try to offer what's relevant for the students we have at the moment. This next term, I'm offering a methodological course, Transformative Technologies from the Resistance. Transformative technologies for transformative methodologies, exactly what I am offering. Next course, we are mostly seeing like action research and educational interventions. But every term I change the seminar I offer. [00:28:42] Sometimes they're theoretical, sometimes they're methodological, but mainly they're focused on the students I am directing their thesis, the students I'm working with. So depending on what their needs are, I offer the seminar and if other students want to take my seminars, they are welcome. [00:29:02] Alan Levine: Is there any topic, technology or not, that is either most exciting to you or perhaps say "I wish I had more time to focus on this particular topic 'cause I'm really energized by it." [00:29:17] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Yes. There's one topic. In fact, I started to work on it at the time, more or less when I did my PhD, which is transmedia. I, came across transmedia narratives when I was doing my PhD thesis. I found that the relationships in this convergence between television and the internet, these relationships were intertextual. And then I found there were, intertextual, transmodalities or transmedia intertext. [00:29:48] And then, I have a novel I had started at some point in my life. When I was in England, I discovered that I had to rewrite it as a novel for young readers, and then I decided it would be a transmedia novel. [00:30:03] in 2014, I wrote the first one because I decided it was a saga. I applied for financial support from a fund here, which is called FONCA, the National Fund for Arts and Culture. [00:30:16] So they gave me the funding, and I published the first novel in 2014. Then I published the second around 2017. And in 2021 I published the third one. I would like to have more time to do research around transmedia because I find it very interesting, especially focused on education, not on entertainment industries. That big transmedia is not my focus. [00:30:43] It's like more transmedia in education. I did research with my novel in schools. Two students that worked with me did their research around using the novels in secondary schools. I would like to have more time for my writing, [00:31:01] Alan Levine: Three novels. Three novels. I'm overwhelmed. You're amazing. What? What are the titles of your novels? [00:31:08] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Because this is a saga, each novel is related to signs. So the first one is the Flute of Aquarius. The second one is the Fund of Libra. The third one is the Tiara of Virgo. [00:31:25] Alan Levine: Oh, wow. [00:31:26] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: So it's an object related to zodiac sign. So that in my fourth one that I am writing, it's the Pendulum of Leo. [00:31:36] Alan Levine: I have to say, like I get to know the award winners through the information that we get, but then when I get to talk to them, it's so rewarding to hear your interest and your focus. And, my own bit of curiosity, because I am looking in your background, the images on your wall, are they historical photos I'm looking at? I can't really see the, frame that's behind you. [00:32:02] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Oh, they're just pictures. some art thing. yes. [00:32:09] Alan Levine: We might have gotten to this, but, outside of all the work you do, what is something that you do a away from all this that brings you joy? [00:32:16] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: I don't have a lot of time for doing things that bring joy to me, but I like reading. I love reading. It's an activity I enjoy very much. And, this, writing I was telling you about, the novel writing, that's not work for me. That's, also pleasure and joy. So when I have the time, I read and I write, so I'm, very boring. [00:32:43] Alan Levine: I don't think so. Closing Remarks and Reflections --- [00:32:45] Alan Levine: You've already sent a really beautiful video testimonial about the award, but can you give us another quote that we can use, about what what the award has done for you as an educator or a researcher? [00:33:03] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: First of all, it was a big motivation because even if it's personal or it was given to me as an educator, I think that the whole team at UAEM, we are 22 persons. We, really felt it like a shared achievement of all because, even though I lead, the creation of MOOCs, I have a team that supports that leading know, so I, can't do it alone. [00:33:32] So it felt like a shared thing for all of us. [00:33:37] But another thing that's very important is that it made visible the work we do. Even though many people at UAEM know our, work, other people don't know it. So with the award, it's like putting a big light now over over the things you are doing. [00:33:54] It brought visibility in our university, but also at the national and international level. Sometimes in the global North, you think of our countries and things we do as smaller, maybe that the things that are done in other places. [00:34:11] So maybe that was given it visibility. Another meaningful thing is that the award recognizes our commitment to Open Educational Resources. Really we decided for Open Education since the very beginning of a UAEM 15 years ago. Open Educational resources for us aren't just a way to reach large audiences, it's also our commitment to society. Because we are a public university, we are sustained by public funds, so the things we do are for society. So given it as open educational resources is to say we are working for everyone who's paying taxes now in Mexico, and anyone in other parts of the world. [00:34:59] If you're a Spanish speaking person, you can use our content. That's being truthful to our ethos as a public university. Also it has been a laboratory for us, because with MOOCs we are more free .When we create curricular courses, we are like serious educators, but when we create MOOCs, we feel like we can be more playful. So we have approached our MOOC creation, trying innovative, approaches like storytelling, like gamification. And so it's playful for us to build them, but also we think that's playful to do our courses because they are not very serious. They're not very boring. So it's also been a laboratory for us. [00:35:50] We have learned a lot about pedagogical approaches, trying them in our MOOCs. The, Open Educational Award is just, the, we call la cereza del pastel like the cherry at the top of the cake. [00:36:06] Alan Levine: Oh, so beautiful, Maria Luisa. I'm so thankful that we have this chance to talk and I get to learn about more of you and we get to share with the audience. I think the world needs to pay a little bit more attention and really give some respect as to what you're achieving with open education. [00:36:24] And we congratulate you for, not only the award, like you say, but the commitment to this as something that you're doing to better the lives and the learning of people, everywhere, in fact, through MOOCs. [00:36:39] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Thank you. [00:36:41] Alan Levine: And thank you, people who are listening to this episode of OEG Voices, again, the podcast from Open Education Global. Each time we do an episode, I pick a different musical track from the Free music Archive because that is all Creative Commons licensed. Sometimes, I have to search around to find something and the title of this track may not sound like it's appropriate, but the music is good. [00:37:07] It's a track called the Threat of Education. And a threat isn't always negative. a threat can be something that changes it? And so it might threaten things that maybe ought to be threatened. Anyhow, I hope you enjoy the song when you hear it, Maria. " Independent Music Licensing collective" is the name of the artist and it's licensed under Creative Commons Attribution, Non-commercial, no Derivatives license. [00:37:31] You'll find this episode at our site, voices dot oeglobal dot org. We also have follow up conversations in the OEG Connect community or wherever you follow us in social media. If anybody's listening and wants to suggest someone we should bring on the show, please let us know. [00:37:48] Mostly I am just so heartened to be able to talk to people in person and you learn so much more about them and the world, by having these conversations. Many thanks again, Maria Luisa. [00:38:01] Maria Luisa Zorrilla: Thanks to you, Alan It was a pleasure. [00:38:03]