Episode 96: Luis Diego Gómez === Intro Music and Highlighted Quote --- [00:00:05] Luis Diego Gómez: We had this idea of bringing the technology to the people. We made an initial pilot project with the Costa Rican El Electronic Institute. And they donated a truck that we completely modified. We modified it so that it had power supplies to bring 3D printers, laser cutters, basically like all the basic equipment of a digital fabrication laboratory. [00:00:38] But that we could take to the communities to give workshops and to show people the technology that exists and what it can do. And we brought this technology to them. The project was a resounding success because, people were amazed-- the truck it could be opened up and everything. Podcast Introduction --- [00:00:56] Alan Levine: Welcome to episode 96 of OE Global Voices Podcast. I'm your host, Alan Levine. This recording with Luis Diego Gomez was made January 30th at the Fab Lab Kä Träre at the University of Distance Education in Costa Rica. [00:01:17] The Fab Lab is an amazing facility and was awarded in 2024 with an Open Education Award for excellence. We're a little bit late in catching up with the Fab Lab-- last August was their 10th anniversary. And we're so excited to learn through Luis Diego's stories and explanations of the projects, just what a fabulous-- to coin a word-- facility this is and how it is connected to open education in so many ways, profound for the university and for the community and people of Costa Rica. [00:01:52] Here we are and I'm virtually in a great facility. We have Luis Diego Gomez coming to us in the Fab Lab, and we're here to talk about this wonderful facility. [00:02:03] It got recognized in 2024 with an Open Education Award. And last August was the 10th anniversary of the Fab Lab. And so we're a little bit late, but we're still honoring that. [00:02:16] Welcome Luis Diego. Meet Luis Diego --- [00:02:17] Alan Levine: And let us know who you are and where you are. [00:02:21] Luis Diego Gómez: thank you. Thank you so much for having me. So yeah, I'm, I am right now in the Fab Lab Kä Träre, like the main space of the laboratory. it's located, within UNED which is the Distance Learning University here in Costa Rica. And it's in San Jose in the capital city of Costa Rica. [00:02:42] I'm gonna describe my surroundings right now because this is the main space. This is where we have our main 3D printers. We also have a laser cutter. We have a desktop CNC router, the equipment that we use to do the work here in the Fab Lab. Frog Model Origin Story --- [00:03:02] Alan Levine: How did you get even interested in fabrication and become part of the Fab Lab? [00:03:08] Luis Diego Gómez: That's a wonderful story because actually I didn't know about Fab Labs, before destiny brought me here. I studied digital animation, that's like my career. But here in the Fab Lab, I work as a 3D generalist and I came to have that position because in, Costa Rica, when you are studying in the university, part of what you have to do to graduate is you have to do some community service. [00:03:40] And ideally the work that you do has to do with your career, what you studied. In my case, some institutions had asked the university for animation students that were looking to do their community service work. And one of those institutions was the Fab Lab. So they were actually looking for a digital animator because they needed someone to do 3D models of a frog. [00:04:10] One of my coworkers here at the laboratory, he is an engineer and he's the other 3D specialist. But the software that engineers use is designed for engineering. So it's very much, very precise measurements, very defined angles. They allow you to do a lot of different 3D models, but for organic shapes, they're rather clunky. [00:04:37] It's difficult to do organic 3D models, whereas in animation you learn a different 3D pipeline. It has to do more like digital sculpture. And organic 3D models is very much in our wheelhouse. [00:04:55] So I did this project with the Fab Lab. It was to learn about a frog that was thought to be extinct back then. One researcher wanted a print of this frog so that he could do some field research with the print, to see how the frogs reacted to others of their species. So I did the 3D model. We had it printed and the researcher spent like three hours in the river in the Talamanca region of Costa Rica, and he actually managed to record some very interesting footage, which helped to prove that the frogs had become territorial and isolated. Before it was thought that they were like a community. [00:05:47] And so that was very interesting. It allowed him also to get some funding for further research. And I fell in love with the way that I could use my work in a more practical way to, to use it in a physical sense. During my career I had very much remained within the wheelhouse of digital animation. [00:06:15] Alan Levine: Oh, that's really fascinating. What the Fab Lab Does --- [00:06:17] Alan Levine: Can you describe in general, the purpose of the Fab Lab, what's it there for and where does it fit into the university? [00:06:27] Luis Diego Gómez: Of course. So actually the Fab Lab is one part of the investigation branch of the distance learning university. And so what we do is mainly investigation, but geared towards prototyping. We receive different ideas and different, projects with people that are. Thinking I want to do this, but I don't know if it's even possible. [00:06:57] And fabrication laboratories are part of what you call maker spaces. it's this idea of having a space where you can build almost anything-- that's their slogan. And that is very much like the way that we work here. We receive different ideas and we do everything that we can to prove that it's possible. [00:07:21] But also because we are part of the investigation branch, we document the whole process. It has helped us to show other branches of the university. For example, the university has a production branch because we produce a lot of educational material for students. And so we say to them, "Here's something that you can do. This is the way you can do it." A step by step guide that helps them to create a system and continue doing this kind of material, in the future. So we are a prototyping space. We are not exactly a manufacturing space in the sense that we don't produce massively. We generate ideas and prove they're possible, and then we give them to the different areas that can do it constantly, so to speak. Reaching New Projects --- [00:08:21] Alan Levine: How do projects come to you? Do they come from mostly people who have an understanding or are you able to reach people who maybe don't even know that they need something like a Fab Lab? [00:08:31] Luis Diego Gómez: So I would say most of the people don't know what a Fab Lab is. And that's actually something that we've worked really hard to change during the years that the laboratory has existed. It still remains kind of new technology in Costa Rica and in general in the region. People not knowing not only that it exists, but all the things that they could do with it. [00:09:00] What we have done is that when we do get like an idea or a project that is usually through social media or maybe someone that we have worked before, we'll be talking to another person in the university. They will have an interesting idea and they will remember something that we have done in the past and say, "I think that maybe the Fab Lab could help you, you should write to them." [00:09:27] So that happens a lot. That's a way that a lot of projects come to us, but we also actively seek to do some projects from our own point. Name Space of Light --- [00:09:39] Alan Levine: I know from looking this up that it's part of a global network of Fab Labs, correct? [00:09:45] What does, the, name "Kä Träre" -- see, I'm gonna mess it up again. What does that mean? Is that Spanish or something else? [00:09:51] Luis Diego Gómez: One of the native peoples of Costa Rica is the Ngäbe people. When the Fab Lab started, we had, a cultural mediator from the  Ngäbe here, learning a little bit about digital fabrication. And we asked him for a name for our laboratory. And the name that was given to us was  Kä Träre. [00:10:18] It means space of light. And in their culture, they believe that light is knowledge and that it's something that is meant to be shared with everyone. So it was perfect, for the vision and the mission of the Fab Lab. [00:10:36] Alan Levine: Wow. That is beautiful. How the Lab Began --- [00:10:43] Alan Levine: And you weren't there in, let's see, it was 2015, it would've started. Do you know where the initial idea came from? Why did UNED say that we think we want to create a Fab Lab? [00:10:51] Luis Diego Gómez: So it actually started as a project that was part of the Investigation Branch. But, so you see UNED is a distance learning university, In 2015 back then, the investigation leader was Lizette Brenes. And there was very much a push towards knowing we have to make sure that we are constantly learning about the technologies across the world that are used to teach students in various ways. [00:11:30] And within that project, within that framework, they learned about fabrication spaces. They were interested in creating a space like that here and following that line towards the end. See what it can do, what it can offer for students, how it can benefit the students and the people in general. [00:11:55] That's initially how it started, but they had almost no resources. And so the very first 3D printer that they had it was a Printrbot- they don't even exist anymore. That brand doesn't exist anymore, but it was like laser cut, in wood. So it was, very cheap in materials and you had to assemble it yourself. [00:12:20] So it was very much like something accessible to start with. With that, because we also work with programming and electronics, they also had a couple of electronic boards. And so with those initial investments, they started working on these diverse projects and positively impacting the community. And that's how they started making a name for themselves, acquiring more sophisticated equipment. And that's actually how it has been growing. Tech Access for Students --- [00:12:57] Alan Levine: I remember early on in when there was a 3D printer designed to make parts to build a 3D printer, which to me sounded like, "wow, that makes sense." You become machines that build themselves. [00:13:10] And it was interesting to think about, UNED is a distance learning institution, what does fabrication have to do with it? [00:13:16] But because 3D models are digital and can be transferred and sent out. And these printers are not necessarily always expensive. It does make sense that it's something you can put to work in the field of distance learning, correct? [00:13:32] Luis Diego Gómez: So for example, one of the projects in the past that I think made a very big impact for the students is that a lot of students of UNED don't have access to a computer. In fact, most of them learn on their phones because it's what is accessible to them. They don't have the means to have a computer. [00:13:57] You maybe sometimes lose that perspective. We can talk a little bit more about this when we talk about a project, of going towards the different communities across the country. So that, is interesting. But, back to what I was telling you about this particular project. There is an electronic board called Arduino. [00:14:24] I hope that I'm saying it like in the technical terms. Basically they made a proposal of making a kit with Arduino and keyboards and a mouse that they could send to students, being financed by the university but much more accessible economically than a computer. But that would allow them to do their homework and to learn from their homes on a device similar to a computer, And that's also a very important part of the work we do. We want to try to make technology accessible and available to as many people as possible. [00:15:12] Alan Levine: Yeah. And you already touched on what I wanted to ask more about is that, that place of where you're working with the community, I saw the Projects where you were fabricating wifi hotspots and the work during COVID for the medical equipment. Are there other examples of things that you've built that are put to use in the Costa Rica communities? Mobile Fab Lab Tour --- [00:15:39] Luis Diego Gómez: For example, one of the projects that we did in 2019, and that has evolved since then is called the Mobile Fab Lab. The Distance Learning University of Costa Rica is one of the four national universities, but it is the one, technically there's five now, but this one in particular is the one that has the most presence across the country in the most communities. [00:16:13] So we had this idea of bringing the technology to the people. We made an initial pilot project with the Costa Rican El Electronic Institute. And they donated a truck that we completely modified. We modified it so that it had power supplies to bring 3D printers, laser cutters, basically like all the basic equipment of a digital fabrication laboratory. [00:16:46] But that we could take to the communities to give workshops and to show people the technology that exists and what it can do. And we did a country tour. We went to like the coastlines, we went to the towns in the north part of the country, that are very far from the capitol. [00:17:11] And we brought this technology to them. The project was a resounding success because, people were amazed-- the truck it could be opened up and everything. So it was, the very exciting, very, engaging to see. [00:17:27] Alan Levine: I'm just trying to imagine people's surprise and excitement. You probably know this well when people watch something being created before their eyes with a 3D printer, it's really exciting. [00:17:39] Luis Diego Gómez: We wanted it to empower them. We wanted to see not only does this exist, but it's yours, the lab is an open space- in order for it to be a true actual Fab Lab, it has to be an open space. [00:17:57] And so if people want to come and learn about it, they are free to do so. We actively encourage it. But the thing is that, we are situated in the Central Valley, so it's not super easy for people that live very far away to come here, even though it's open. So our thought process was like, we want to be fully, truly open. We want people that don't usually have access to these things to learn up close, what they are and what they can do. [00:18:35] I was telling you that is very impactful, and it gives you perspective. Is the things that you see in these communities where if you are always in the Central Valley, you think oh, people live this way. But no, we have worked with people who have never touched a computer. They don't know how a mouse works. Sometimes they don't even have access to internet, so they don't know how the internet works. [00:19:03] In one of the communities where we visited with the mobile Fab lab, the people brought their children to learn. And we did have this one time when a little girl was hesitant to go up. She straight up asked us, "Can girls participate as well?" So that's a point where you'd see "oh, there is a reality out there that is not the reality where you usually work within academic spaces" and that's what we want to break. [00:19:39] Alan Levine: Yeah. Digital Fabrication Basics --- [00:19:39] Alan Levine: And I, will admit, like I don't know a whole lot about fabrication. I have a little bit experience doing a little bit and seeing 3D printers. Can you talk about, you mentioned some of the, I'm gonna forget like the laser cutting and can you give a summary about what some of those machines, actually do and what their purpose is? [00:19:58] Luis Diego Gómez: Of course. When you talk about digital fabrication, there are usually two big areas. You can do fabrication through adding material, which is additive manufacturing, or you can do fabrication through subtractive manufacturing, where you instead start from something big and you break it down to get to the final product. [00:20:22] But, in general, the main principle is the same. You start with a digital design and you use it in the computer to give the parameters to the machine. And the machine does a manufacturing. So we have laser cutters which use lasers to cut into a material. It can go completely through and cut the material, or it can just do a line on top of it so you can do both design and cutting. [00:20:53] And that's one of the subtractive manufacturing as well as the CNC we call them like routers. They're both numerical cutting. But, the routers use a drill instead of lasers so they can handle tougher and thicker materials. [00:21:15] On the other hand, when you talk about additive manufacturing, you're talking about 3D printing. There's a lot of 3D printing technologies, but the two main ones that we use here in our Fab Lab are FDM where you melt down a material and build it slowly, layer by layer. And then we also have resin printing, in which you have this liquid that is susceptible to light, it becomes solid when exposed to light. [00:21:47] So it's a laser that does the different figures. We have mainly those two technologies. We usually use FDM for the general projects because it's the most accessible, but some projects require like very precise prints, so that's when we use resin. How Printing Evolved --- [00:22:12] Alan Levine: In the 10 years that the Fab Lab has been at this, I remember the original Maker Bot, how has that technology evolved and are there like things like looming on the horizon that are pretty exciting for fabrication? [00:22:25] Luis Diego Gómez: Yeah, it's evolved a lot. And it's constantly evolving as well, as in everything it is exponential how fast it's going. [00:22:36] Initially, even the prints were not super precise and they were very prone to failure. So someone had to be constantly supervising the prints to make sure that the end result would be good. [00:22:50] And nowadays, you can even put the printer to work remotely. You can see it from a camera that is installed within the printer, so you don't even have to be in the lab to print. That is one of the developments, and that's not particularly recent. Constantly the technology is improving so that it is faster. You can produce more in less time. [00:23:19] The amount of different materials available for printing has also been expanding. And there's a whole branch that we haven't yet had the opportunity to delve into that is now like large scale 3D printing. You do see a lot of it in Asia and Europe, mainly, but it's the same principle as FDM, but it uses a robotic arm. [00:23:44] So you can do like really large prints. The thing is that you also need to have a dedicated space for it. So in a country as small as Costa Rica, that is a bit difficult to achieve. Yeah. [00:23:57] Alan Levine: What has been printed at that kind of scale? Room sized or larger? [00:24:02] Luis Diego Gómez: Nowadays you hear about printing houses, printing bridges. We're talking like really large scale. Yeah. [00:24:11] Alan Levine: That's exciting. let's see. Creative Standout Projects --- [00:24:14] Alan Levine: I scanned some of the projects of course, and they're all impressive. Can, you remember any projects that really stand out-- I wouldn't say bizarre, but like unusual or that maybe you the lab you were thinking like, "I don't know if we can do this." [00:24:28] What are some the creative, unusual projects you've been involved with? [00:24:32] Luis Diego Gómez: That's a kind of a difficult question to answer because one of the most exciting things about this space is how varied it always is, constantly. One of the things I feel that sort of differentiates this fab Lab from a lot of Fab Labs that we have learned about is that because we are part of a public university, we work with a very varied amount of people and very different learning spaces. [00:25:08] So I can think of some very interesting projects. There's one that we did that is called the Physics of Ballet. It's an application an app for the phone. It was designed thinking of students of distance learning, but specifically this teacher, this Physics teacher, she had noticed that a lot of the female students in the Physics career, in the distance learning university were abandoning the career. And she wondered why that was. [00:25:48] And she found that there was like this whole push of it being a very masculine learning career. She wanted to change that. So she decided to create this app that taught physics, but using it specifically within ballet, explaining the physics behind ballet moves. [00:26:11] So it's a game, where you learn about ballet poses and movements, but how they work, when it comes to physics. And it's virtual reality. The students receive a cutout of a visor-- well, it started with a cutout. Nowadays they get like a proper visor to do the exercises with their phones and learn about physics, but applied to ballet. [00:26:42] So that was very interesting. And it hadn't been done before, to create an app for the students. that was at the same time, like learning and gaming. We again documented the whole process and we gave it to Production and we said, this is how it's done. [00:27:01] Alan Levine: Maybe, like a personal, a favorite project that stands out? [00:27:04] Luis Diego Gómez: Right now we are working on a project that has me very excited. We are working with the natural sciences branch. Some of the teachers there wanted to create board games, but specifically board games that would teach students about the genetics of population in nature, how evolution works and why. To teach also about paternity tests, about how mitosis and meiosis work, all of these things. [00:27:42] But they wanted not only to create these board games, but they wanted to make sure that they are fun, that they are accessible because they teach future teachers. And these teachers are all over the country. Sometimes they only have access to paper or cardboard, things that are very cheap. We are prototyping and designing these board games. [00:28:10] And it has been very, fun because working with these teachers, we get to learn a lot about these topics. They get to learn a lot about design thinking and about prototyping. So we are working together to get these projects validated, and that is coming, relatively soon. In March, we have the first validations of the board games. [00:28:35] Alan Levine: Oh, that, that's exciting. Design Thinking Workshops --- [00:28:37] Alan Levine: I saw on the site that you teach design thinking, which makes sense when I'm hearing our conversation. But is that something would naturally be associated with a fabrication laboratory? [00:28:49] Luis Diego Gómez: Maybe not like naturally, but I do think that it would be very important. I think that it's very beneficial for spaces like this to know about that process. But we also actively encourage it for everything. [00:29:06] For those who maybe don't know what design thinking is, it's a methodology. It's a way of thinking that helps you go from an idea or maybe a problem that you have and that you want to fix, but aren't sure quite how. It gives you steps to generate ideas, to explore your creativity and to maybe try something out of the box and get to a final result that is validated and that you are sure that it's going to work. [00:29:41] It helps you to avoid the traps that can maybe happen when you are working with any sort of design process, creative process. Sometimes what happens a lot in these kinds of spaces is that because you have all these very exciting technology, you are very tempted to use it right away. And to maybe create prototypes using these technologies. [00:30:05] But the design thinking encourages you to maybe start with paper, cardboard, Play-Doh even. Most of the time when you do it that way, first you find out, "Oh, I hadn't thought about this, that this doesn't work." If you had done it with 3D printing, you would have wasted resources in something that you could have prevented. [00:30:30] So that is why we use this methodology. And yeah, we do teach it. We actually do workshops across the country. From last year actually, we have a project where we go to very special places around the country that are called, let me see if I can translate it in English-- "Civic Centers for Peace". [00:30:52] Alan Levine: Okay. [00:30:53] Luis Diego Gómez: There they are like community centers that were created by the President in around 2008, I think it was, Laura Chinchilla, who was president back then. She created these spaces and they are strategically placed in communities that have struggled with violence and low development levels. [00:31:21] So we are working with them and what we do is that we go there and we give workshops. We give 3D modeling workshops. We give Design Thinking workshops. So yeah, this is something that we try to teach a lot. [00:31:36] Alan Levine: That is so progressive. Small Team Big Impact --- [00:31:37] Alan Levine: When you're describing all these things, I have to ask how many people work at the Fab Lab? 'cause it sounds like hundreds for all the things that you do. [00:31:47] Luis Diego Gómez: So we're we're just nine people. [00:31:49] Alan Levine: Wow. [00:31:51] Luis Diego Gómez: Yeah. And one thing that is I think very interesting and very exciting about it is that none of us studied the same thing. We are all professionals from different areas. [00:32:03] Alan Levine: Name some of the fields you're from. [00:32:06] Luis Diego Gómez: Like I told you, I am a digital animator. That's what I studied. We have this other coworker of mine who is an engineer, and he studied a product design. We have another one who is a producer a visual producer. Our coordinator, the FabLabs coordinator, is a teacher, a kindergarten teacher, actually. She studied to be a kindergarten teacher, but right now she's the leader of the Fab Lab. [00:32:37] I have always admired her for that because I think that it is something that really catches people off guard. Usually don't expect that kind of profile, not only to be present in a Fab Lab, but to be leading it. [00:32:54] I think that it has actually the reason of the big success of the Fab Lab because it's particular way of thinking. It's thinking about how to reach the people, how to teach them about how this works. [00:33:12] We have another coworker who is a mathematician. We have a programmer. We have another coworker is from publicity actually. So as you see, it's like very, varied. [00:33:29] Alan Levine: But that says a lot 'cause you bring other skills into, you're not just focused on the tools or the platform. [00:33:36] I have so many questions! Open Education and Light Box --- [00:33:38] Alan Levine: You talked a little bit about the way you framed the idea of openness, meaning that it's accessible and people can use it. [00:33:46] Is there a relationship you can expand upon to Open Education or Open Source in the work that you do? [00:33:54] Luis Diego Gómez: We try to use open source materials, but also to create open source education as much as possible. The projects that we've done, when we create scientific articles to publish we always try to do it in a way that it's going to be accessible openly for people. [00:34:14] Also, for example, there was this project that one of my coworkers made called The Light Box. There is a device that is used in early learning for children to check their sight, their ability to differentiate different shapes. It's basically used to detect possible issues that the child might have. It can also help to find, for example, attention deficit disorder. It can help it find early. [00:34:51] It's basically what it says- it's a light box, it's a box with light, and you can put shapes on it. But when this project was made, in Costa Rica there were only two light boxes because they were these very big, clunky things, very expensive. There was one in the National Children's Hospital and there was one in the Centeno Guell which is like the special Needs learning school. The reason why it was only there is because it was so expensive, unfortunately, as it is in lots of places in the world, teachers don't have a lot of resources. [00:35:33] He had this idea, he has always been very passionate about light and light fixtures. He created a modified version of the light box that you can build yourself with 3D printing, laser cutting, and a circuit board. [00:35:52] But it had a lot of improvements. One of them is that it's movable. You can change the color and intensity of the light. [00:36:02] When the project was finished, not only was it published publicly, but also it was the first time that the university had a sort of patent. it's not exactly a patent, but it's more like saying, okay, this idea is free for everyone. It's not allowed to sell. Whoever wants it can download the design and build them themselves. They don't have to pay anything, but they're not allowed to sell it for a profit. [00:36:38] Alan Levine: Yeah. It's non-commercial, that's fantastic. Awards and Closing Chat --- [00:36:43] Alan Levine: I have to acknowledge the Fab Lab created and printed the awards that we give out for the Open Education Awards for Excellence, which were the 3D model of the yellow logo. It lit up. [00:36:56] And did you work on that? Do you remember working on that? What did you think of that? [00:37:00] Luis Diego Gómez: Yeah, so I, really like them. I have to say I was not one of the people who worked on that particular project, but this coworker that made the light box was one of the people who worked on that award. And yeah. That light was I believe his idea. [00:37:21] Alan Levine: Yeah. Many times when I'm having video calls with some of the colleagues who got these awards, they nearly always have it, like on their desk or on the shelf behind them. [00:37:30] So work of the Fab Lab, lives on. [00:37:34] Thank you Luis, so much. This has been exciting. I don't know about you listeners, but I want to go and see the Fab Lab. It sounds very exciting. [00:37:42] I'm just curious, what are your interest in and things that you like doing away from this fabrication work? What do you find that gives you joy outside of work? [00:37:51] Luis Diego Gómez: So outside of work, I play the piano. I actually sing in a choir and I play the piano in another choir. And that is something that I really enjoy. I've even had the opportunity to go compete outside the country. That has been like very, interesting. And I also like to go hiking. There's a lot of very beautiful views in Costa Rica. [00:38:19] Alan Levine: I know, it's on my list of places that I definitely wanna see. [00:38:23] So thank you so much, Luis. it's been a real pleasure talking to you. Sorry it took so long because the award was a while ago, but the Fab Lab, it's an extraordinary facility and I can see why you're excited to work there. [00:38:35] Luis Diego Gómez: Thank you. Thank you so much and, really no problem. We're very excited to be there. Podcast Wrap Up --- [00:38:40] Alan Levine: Okay, you just listened to episode 96 of the OE Global Voices Podcast, the podcast that we do here at Open Education Global, bringing to you voices and people like Luis Diego Gomez, who make up the world of open education. [00:38:59] We thank Luis Diego as well as Diana Hernandez Montoya for arranging this podcast and for sharing the work of the Fab Lab. [00:39:10] Each episode of OE Global Voices features a different musical intro track that I select from the Free Music Archive that connects to this show's discussion. [00:39:19] For today's show, I selected a track called "Make It" by an artist named Synapsis, licensed Under Creative Commons Attribution Non-commercial, No Derivatives license. And so if you wanna suggest a guest that we should have on the show, please let us know. [00:39:34] Look forward to future shows coming up in the next couple months. We're gonna be featuring a lot more of last year's Open Education award for Excellence winners, as well as some new series of shows with OE Global members. [00:39:46] You can find our show at voices.oeglobal.org. And you are welcome to join us for follow up discussion in our OEG Connect community. [00:39:57] Thank you again, and we look forward to bringing you another episode very soon.